Aye, whatever idea we have of God helps in so far as it aligns with Him as He would be. Him being humble I like. Letting nature do its thing. Him having to intervene in nature, beyond incarnating, stinks.
"Most of what the creationist world touts as rapid fossilization is actually just encrustation of mineral laden water, like you get on your faucets if you have hard water."
You’re kidding, right? So, please supply the link for this. I’ve never come across any creationist who says this.
"Besides, if that is true, haven’t you been arguing that fossils can’t form in seabeds because they are eaten up before they can be fossilized?"
What? I don’t get the connection. So, if fossilization is rapid (occurring in a matter of years rather than millions of years), somehow this contradicts my saying that fossils must be rapidly, completely, and deeply buried in muddy sediments in order to both escape consumption by bacteria and become permineralized? So, where is the contradiction?
Steve, you have forgotten how we wrapped up that discussion. I acknowledged that there were rare circumstances in which enough sediments covered skeletons to spare their being consumed–and (as I remember) you agreed that such situations were rare.
But…I went on to say that this still does not deny the necessity of bones being buried rapidly, completely, and deeply in muddy sediments in order for them to fossilize--and I specifically reminded you that fossilization of bones is the subject of this OP.
So, throughout Scripture, there are times and occasions where God suspends natural law–i.e., He supernaturally intervenes. And these are times when He sees fit to specially reveal His reality before man.
He did this first in Creation–to demonstrate, His power and majesty, yet, at the same time, His humble care toward us seemingly insignificant beings (compared to the magnitude of the Universe). After all, a God who created this boundless Universe must be, in the very nature of the case, much greater than it.
With Israel, God again supernaturally intervened, delivering them from Egypt and then providing for them through the wilderness, to make it clear He was/is the true God, unlike all the Egyptian “gods” they had known. He was the “I Am” who actually loved them, entered into covenant relationship with them, and would underwrite their success.
Thanks, Phil. Yet, this is not a case where an item became “encrusted,” is it (as you said, creationists point to)? Rather, it is a case of minerals being absorbed, and so, “fossilizing” the hat.
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Yes, I agree–and this is exactly what I have been saying: a bone becomes buried rapidly, completely, and deeply in muddy marine sediments…and after it does, it become permineralized.
“This isn’t true, I don’t know why you would say that uniformitarians would agree with such an idea.”
Are you unfamiliar with cratonic sequences? Unfamiliar with the megasequences–the Sauk, Tippecanoe, Kaskaskia, Absaroka, Zuni, and Tejas?
Uniformitarian thinking today (at least ever since sequence stratigraphy, in the 1960’s) is that a marine transgression in the form of an ancient inland sea during each of these megasequences deposited upon the craton/continent a “discrete package” of sedimentary rock layers, bounded above and below by an unconformity. And, within each of these megasequences are several shorter-term sequences (also bounded by unconformities).
But…they claim that each megasequence occurred over about 100 million years–which means that each of these marine incursions moved super super slowly (1/4 inch per year)…which is why they call these incursions “seas,” since they are thought of as being nearly stationary.
So…the Sauk transgression is credited with depositing the Tapeats Sandstone, Bright Angel Shale, and Muav Limestone, as it slowly slowly progressed over the North American continent.
Are you not familiar with this? If not, check out Wikipedia on the Sauk Sequence:
The Sauk sequence was the earliest of the six cratonic sequences that have occurred during the Phanerozoic in North America. It was followed by the Tippecanoe, Kaskaskia, Absaroka, Zuñi, and Tejas sequences.[1]
The sequence dates from the late Proterozoic through the early Ordovician periods, though the marine transgression did not begin in earnest until the middle Cambrian.[2] It is one of the most striking cratonic sequences in the geological record, spreading sheets of sandstone across basement rock deep into the interiors of many continents. The transgression took place rapidly, advancing over 300 kilometers (190 mi) across the Grand Canyon region in less than five million years.[3]
Sequence stratigraphy revolves largely around changes in sea level. But here is where geologists acknowledge different possibilities for the rise or fall of sea level. For example, a rise in sea level could be due to subsidence…or it could be due to a rise in global (or eustatic) sea level. And, this rise in sea level could be caused by such things as seafloor spreading, or melting glaciers (or excessive rainfall!).
Since uniformitarians deny any major catastrophism (such as from a worldwide Flood), they–like you–do not allow for “high energy” waters flooding the continents with the ocean sediments found there.
However, in rejecting such flooding, I believe they are overlooking one of the dynamics of plate tectonics. Seafloor rifting (over 40,000 miles of it) resulted in seafloor spreading–which, itself, contributed to flooding of the continents as it elevated the seafloor.
But seafloor spreading also resulted in subduction zones–over 30,000 miles of subduction zones–as the old seafloor was subducted under the continental plates, along the Pacific coastlines. So, what dynamics resulted from such subduction? Volcanoes sprang up–452 of them along the Pacific coast, called “The Ring of Fire.” Mountain ranges also sprang up.
But there is still another dynamic produced by subduction zones–something often overlooked. And that is tsunamis. And, figuring about 34,000 miles of subduction zones, that’s a lot of tsunamis–in fact, probably, megatsunamis–speeding across the ocean floor at about 550 mph.
I believe these would provide the kind of high-energy waters necessary to pick up ocean sediments and deposit them over most of the continents. In fact, sequence stratigraphy studies show that each megasequence contains many “pulses” of strong depositional flows–just as occurs with tsunamis.
Where did God intervene beyond the incarnation and its first circle going forward and Paul?
I’m aware of various transgressive and regressive sequences. Note my response above.
I’ve noted structural deformation that contradict your position multiple times, but I don’t see any response from your posts. See post 477 for example.
When you have structural deformation that exists and has occurred prior to or in between transgressive and regressive sequences, it doesn’t allow rapid deposition as you’re proposing. At least not without overlooking quite a bit of basic physics and chemistry.
And I gave a pretty simple example before, where various forms of structural fracturing or otherwise features that are characteristic of the motion of lithified dense bodies of rock, predates things like erosion of Cenozoic strata by rivers. Which doesn’t really make any sense if earth were just a few thousand years old.
Another example is of things like angular uncomformities observed between periods of strata of the Tippecanoe sequence.
Some might try to respond by saying that structural deformation occurred later in time after these deposits had already lithified, but this runs against basic logic observed in things like the law of inclusions, original horizontality and things of the like.
For example, if you have deformation in Paleozoic layers or mesozoic layers, then the layers above those are not deformed, it’s difficult to argue that deformation occurred after deposition was complete. Because of course if it was all deformed after deposition was complete, then there isn’t any clear reason why overlying layers are not also deformed. Or in the case of the grand canyon as noted before, you have thrust faulting of the laramide orogeny (your deformation) followed by erosion by the Colorado. Therefore the erosion by water must have occurred not during, but after rock had already solidified.
Or, let’s say you have ordovician strata deposited by this alleged giant wave blasting around the planet, it runs against basic physics to have things like breccia observed in fault gouge between the two bodies or particularly the presence of fragmented inclusions captured at the base of silurian deposits. As if the lower strata must have been solid rock in order for angular fragments to be captured within the base of the overlying layers as they were deposited.
I’d be happy to explain further if you would like.
And regarding your comments on subduction zones, I agree that they cause earthquakes and tsunamis, but to be fair, I don’t think anyone has ever observed a tsunami to build mountains the size of the himilayas. Meanwhile there is a simple alternative found in the theory of plate tectonics, which we know reasonably can build mountains without defying physics, as observed in mountains still growing today.
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No, because no matter where they are today, they would be mixed in with other organisms. Massive reefs of crinoids in shallow water don’t really exist anymore.
Usually, it’s a secret (on the company’s part), but I would be fairly confident that there would be occasional identifiable fish, ray, or shark teeth mixed in. Anything much larger than small bones would get smashed by standard drilling equipment.
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First, to clarify, when I say “intervene” here, I’m talking about His working supernaturally–where He suspends natural law in order to reveal His presence and working in a special way.
He intervened in Creation…in certain ways during the Flood (e.g., initiating it after bringing the animals to the ark)…in the plagues of Egypt, to force Pharaoh’s hand…in the crossing of the Red Sea…in providing for Israel 40 years in the wilderness (e.g., water from a rock; manna from dew on the ground, etc.)…in the conquest of Canaan, under Joshua’s leadership (e.g., toppling the walls of Jericho)…in demonstrating His own reality and the unreality of pagan gods, in Elijah’s “contest” with the Baal and Asherah prophets…in revealing the prophecies of Israel’s overthrow by Assyria, Judah’s overthrow by Babylon followed by Judah’s restoration to their land under Cyrus the Persian king, prophecies of the coming Christ (like, His crucifixion, Psalm 22).
I never said that tsunamis build mountains. Rather, orogenies result either from subduction or from convergent tectonics–as in the case of the Himalayas, where the Indian plate collided with the Eurasia plate, thus pushing up the Himalayas.
But we know that subduction zones do produce tsunamis. Think about the powerful tsunamis set off in Alaska, 1964, at a subduction zone. In fact, tsunami waves from this even shot across to over 20 countries around the world. And this was just from one subduction zone–and it wasn’t even the initiation period, when the ocean plate first subducted under the continental plate.
And, again, considering there are over 34,000 miles of subduction zones, which were initiated at the same time (we know that the Ring of Fire volcanoes, produced by the same zones, “sprang up” at the same time), there must be (literally) tons of evidence that megatsunamis were set off at these same subduction zones–and I believe the evidence for this is all the loads of ocean sediments, now sedimentary rock layers (packed with marine fossils), now resting upon the continents.
I’m not ignoring your point here, Adrian. But I do need to give more study and thought to this before answering.
I used to believe all that too Don. For over 40 years. Apart from YEC, being a ‘gapper’.
How do you “know” that? Given there are extinct, eroded volcanoes I doubt the “same time” is less than a year.
So your argument is “tsunamis created sedimentary rock layers and the evidence for these tsunamis are the sedimentary rock layers”? Bit circular isn’t it?
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" And so, you believe that the flooding waters of the Sauk transgression somehow managed to hold in suspension 3 million cubic kilometers of sediments, very, very, very gradually depositing it over 75% of North America…as these flooding waters crept across the continent at 1/4 inch per year ?
And, you believe that the flooding waters of the Sauk transgression were able to erode even large boulders out of basement granite–thus forming the Great Unconformity–as they “blazed” across the craton, going… 1/4 inch per year (the velocity in keeping with a 5 million year deposition of sediments)?"
This reflects a misunderstanding that is also relevant to the ongoing effects of global warming. The mere rise of sea level at fraction of an inch per year itself would only cause very gradual change. But it doesn’t take much familiarity with the ocean to realize that the surface is not very still. When waves, tides, currents, and storms are taken into account, the effects of rising sea level are rather more dramatic. Rising sea level by just a small amount, especially along a fairly flat coastline, gives waves a bit of a step further inland and so promotes erosion.
It is young-earth models, not old-earth ones, that demand vast amounts of sediment being held in suspension. The patterns in fossils, the sequence stratigraphic pattern, the development of patterns following Walther’s law, isotope stratigraphy, radiometric dating, and many more features indicate that the sediment on top of the Sauk unconformity was gradually deposited over a huge amount of time. But the more fundamental problem is that you (and young-earth arguments generally) don’t have a coherent model that you are comparing with conventional geology. You need to have a detailed model and stick with it. If it needs fixed, fix it, but you need to have a specific model and stick with it. Burying an ichthyosaur already partly broken down before the Flood would require that many layers that most young-earthers, including you, have attributed to the flood were actually pre-flood (e.g., the Sauk megasequence). A viable flood geology model has to specifically identify which layers were during the flood, which were before, and which were after, and stick with those decisions, rather than arbitrarily putting the same layer in or out of the flood as seems convenient. Also, the tsunamis that you are advocating would have scattered and smashed a partially decayed skeleton, not gently buried it. Again, you need to be consistent about whether the flood is gentle or violent and stick with it, not switching to match the detail under discussion at the moment.
I am not convinced that the evidence for the existence of J, P, E, or D is any better than the evidence for a young earth or global flood; dealing with the text as we have it is much more meaningful than speculating about sources. But if we take the biblical text seriously as a whole, the young-earth approach runs into problems. It tries to take Genesis 1-10 out of context, treating as a modernistic scientific and historical account, ignoring the connections to figurative and symbolic meaning as well as disregarding the importance of careful honesty in approaching the scientific evidence.
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We were out and took this pic at a road cut nearby. The green layers are iron rich glauconite, basically trilobite poop from 500 million years back. The layers of sandstone and trilobite pop are evidence of varied water levels and sedimentation with long periods in between.
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The Ring of Fire volcanoes were all formed by the same event–ultimately, seafloor rifting, which then resulted in seafloor spreading, which sent ocean plates subducting beneath continental plates…which generated the Ring of Fire volcanoes, along the Pacific coastline.
So, they were formed at the same time–though, “time” will mean something different, depending upon whether one uses the evolutionary time scale or the Flood time scale.