God does not lie, and the Bible is true. Those of us who are Christians in this forum can agree on that. The subject under discussion is interpretation. Can Genesis be fully true and evolutionary theory be fully true, even though we do not understand exactly how?
I say yes.
Let’s take the example of John Calvin.
[The Christian is not to compromise so as to obscure the distinction between good and evil, and is to avoid the errors of] those dreamers who have a spirit of bitterness and contradiction, who reprove everything and prevent the order of nature. We will see some who are so deranged, not only in religion but who in all things reveal their monstrous nature, that they will say that the sun does not move, and that it is the earth which shifts and turns. When we see such minds we must indeed confess that the devil posses them, and that God sets them before us as mirrors, in order to keep us in his fear. So it is with all who argue out of pure malice, and who happily make a show of their imprudence. When they are told: “That is hot,” they will reply: “No, it is plainly cold.” When they are shown an object that is black, they will say that it is white, or vice versa. Just like the man who said that snow is black; for although it is perceived and known by all to be white, yet he clearly wished to contradict the fact. And so it is that they are madmen who would try to change the natural order, and even to dazzle eyes and benumb their senses.
John Calvin was stuck on a particular belief that he THOUGHT was Scriptural - geocentrism. He could not understand how the Bible could be geocentric (which it is) and yet the heliocentric model be scientifically true.
@martin, since the Bible teaches it, are going to claim that we should also believe geocentrism and refute heliocentrism?
Perhaps a better question is: Are you a better theologian/scientist than Calvin was? From his example, should we not perhaps be careful to be so quick to discard scientific truth because we THINK it cannot coexist alongside scriptural truth?
I think in time science does indeed have it’s place and can correct errors and misconceptions in science that we have derived from in the past. However, i think the most pertinent question to ask was not was the earth the center of the universe{we know now it is not.} But the question that should be asked is, did God create this planet and how did we get on this earth and why is the earth so perfect for life and where did all the water come from to support life? those are the questions to ask. the earth has always revolved around the sun. just simply figuring it out that it did ,did nothing at all to change that truth of Gods word or answer the questions I have just ask.
I don’t think it’s really about science in your case. You’ve decided that the world must be young because you believe the Bible says so. Period. You are trying to cover or buttress that faith with a modern veneer of ‘scientific respectability’ but I must tell you, that’s a dicey proposition. See this blog entry from Todd Wodd, a YEC-believing scientist with a background in biology. Todd is honest in his assessment of the scientific status of YEC vs. current scientific thought.
As mankind, we received the responsibility to care for Creation. An interesting resource for you might be this video by Joel Duff on Creation Care:
Below the video, there’s the following message:
The Bible provides a direct mandate to be caretakers of the garden (Gen 2 v.15). While creation still belongs to God, He has graciously entrusted it to our care and stewardship. This was our first calling, recorded early on in Genesis 1 and 2, and we remain God’s caretakers over all creation today.
So as Christians, we should be alert to any indications that we are doing harm to the Earth’s climate. According to scientists, these indications are very strong. But even if they were weak, we would have to be careful. Better safe than sorry. God made it for us after all.
Absolutely. But you said “scientists can be paid to lie.” That goes both ways. If you distrust scientists as a rule, do you distrust preachers as a rule?
Do you study scripture as God’s revelation? That’s called theology.
Because nature is also God’s revelation. And the study of that is called science.
Please, Martin, have you ever read how God created Adam and Even in Genesis 2?
God can do anything God chooses to do, but God did not create everything instantly even in Genesis. God did not create Adam and Eve instantly. God did not create Abraham instantly. God did not create Jesus instantly, nor did God create you and me instantly.
God did not create God’s Kingdom instantly, although God could, saving us much time, effort, and suffering. God creates in time or by evolution. To not believe that is to blame God for all the suffering, death, and pain in this world, past, present, and future.
You cannot see God as an ape. Neither can I because I know that the Creation takes brains and wisdom that apes do not have. However there are many humans who do not act like they are created in God’s Image, including a prominent politician who says he has never apologized to anyone and yet is still the greatest. If I had to choose between an ape and the Greatest as a role model, I would choose the ape.
You of course have the right to believe what you want, but as a born again Christian you have the responsibility to study science and theology so you can follow Jesus with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
But the scientists who discuss evolution today are not the people who lied to you about Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man. Additionally, the people who debunked Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man were scientists; scientists who accept evolution.
In fact in the case of Nebraska Man it was not a lie; it was a misclassification by a couple of scientists, which other scientists disagreed with. In the case of Piltdown Man it was a lie, but not a lie by scientists; it was a lie by the non-scientist who invented the fraud. Plenty of actual scientists were suspicious of Piltdown Man and said it wasn’t true. So your entire argument is invalid.
To me they are totally 100% incompatible. they are only compatible if you believe in “shape shifting” like {Star trek the next generation}, I call the compatibility idea a “twisting of the mind” or ‘wild imagination’ that has nothing to do with reality.
then today’s scientist need to work harder to debunk today’s false ideas of evolution as well. then they would be putting their knowledge to GREAT use.
To shake the rafters and shake the shingles of the lie of evolution and put out the true evidence that it is not considered about evolution. LOL and that’s what i do. and you yourself are not evaluating the contrary evidence as well when you point one finger at me 3 are pointing back at you.
It actually makes the evolutionary position look stronger to have you here @martin . The contrast between people making rational and educated statements, pointing to actual calculations, research, and established discoveries all contrasts quite nicely with your rhetorical jumping up and down stamping your feet, exploding emojis, and saying nothing substantial. Keep up the good work.
other evolutionist have said the same when nations go to war a lot of times one side or the other will drop tracts on the opposite side to the same effect, it is called “psychological war fare”. If i truly believed your words it would scare me to death, how ever I do know Francis Collins{the founder of Bio logos} wrote a book called “The language of life:DNA and the revolution personalized medicine” those words sound very like the same thing Stephen C Meyer wrote in {The signature in the cell} book he wrote. Language of DNA{Collins} = Signature in the cell [Meyers] what is the difference ? i do not believe that Meyers is a whacked out as men would make him if Mr Collins wrote the same things in his books maybe you have read the books and can help?
With statements like these I do not think you can possibly be serious. Scientists do not date the age of the earth with human skulls. They have at least 50 independent dating methods which confirm the age of the earth. They do not need any biological remains to date the age of the earth, still less human fossils.
What Christy said here is absolutely true.
Behaviour like yours (by people who really were genuine), contributed significantly to me finally accepting evolution is a fact. Most of my friends had the same experience. But I will say it again, I don’t believe you’re really genuine. At the very least you certainly have absolutely no genuine intention of actually engaging in a discussion, and you have all but admitted you’re a troll.
That is not true.It is my understanding people are bias against creation by spoken word by God instantly. they “love the idea of evolution so much” and it has been "preached as true science"so much that if they think they ever come out as against it 100% people will say to them that they are not “scientific” in any way and laugh at them, the same way people are laughing at me now because I hold the 100% creationist position. people think the Bible is “old hash” and does NOT have much to say about the day we live in. People find it easy to discount the Bible as NOT science or scientific, I say this however when it comes to origins I agree the Bible is confusing, but it is only confusing on our part, but not from Gods perspective of creation.He did it the way the Bible said 100% and in the end when we stand before him we will find out that the [humanist ideas of evolution] were incorrect and while the Bible seemed confusing at the time it was 100% correct all along and people should have believed it. Mr Collins{the founder of Bio logos} was evidently a firm Darwinian evolutionist 100% But he found out that DNA does indeed have a language in it, just as Mr. Meyer claims it does. that is why he wrote the Book {The language of life} so when Mr Collins found something as fact that went against his idea of evolution as Darwin said ’ by “naturalism” It shook his belief system up. just as the fact fine tuning of the universe shook up for the Astronomers. So what to do??? Answer is: Just change your story a little and STILL claim evolution but Tack “God” on and then you can still hug your lie of evolution an say “God did it through evolution”. you have kept Darwinism intact and just tacked on the idea of God did it which he thinks is a much weaker argument, but had to do it because of what the DNA told him was fact {DNA has language in it} just as Meyer says, but is laughed at as nonscientific because he does not believe in evolution. think about it? please,i am not crazy or a troll in any way.i am pointing out something that NO ONE is saying! that is all. what say ye? peace be to you.
YOU ARE WRONG! I used to be a firm six-day Creationist. I have lived almost my entire life committed to God’s purpose for my life. I have pursued a career in full-time ministry–against my own personal agendas and interests. And I have done a lot of investigation on this (more, apparently, than you–given some of the statements you’ve made). I have evaluated “contrary evidence” and “contrary arguments.” And I’ve come out “on the other side.”
I have a deeper love and understanding of scripture than I used to. I have read the Bible in multiple translations multiple times. My love for Jesus has not diminished by becoming convinced that the universe is far older and far vaster than I thought.
and you yourself are not evaluating the contrary evidence as well when you point one finger at me 3 are pointing back at you.
what say ye? peace be to you.