Denying that God is triune puts you outside orthodox Christian teaching?

Faith & Science Conversation
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If you are saved, what difference does it make what you believe? If you are not saves, then who cares.

Many people think that the "orthodox are those who persecute, but the heterodox can be dogmatic also.

The issue here is both more complicated and less complicates than it seems It is the One4 and the Many. Is Reality basically One? If so, you think that God is Simple and are philosophically minded. Is Reality is basically Many? If so, you think that Reality is complicated and you are scientifically minded.

Christianity sways that Reality in the form of God is both One and Many. Christianity solves the Riddle of the One and the Many by reconciling them through the And. See my essay on Using the One and the Many on Academia.edu

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I can’t speak for everyone who doesn’t see God as triune, but I want none of these things.

I will gladly admit that I cannot derive all truth from the Bible.

I don’t require that things are logically simple, but I would prefer that they are not more complex than they really need to be. The trinity doctrines introduce layers of complexity that are not needed to make sense of God or the Bible.

I don’t need God to be more like me. I think believing a doctrine that says God became man could imply that, though.

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I don’t think that’s true. There were many different Christologies running around between the 1-3cs. That’s why there was so much turmoil. The spirit wasn’t even mentioned in many formulations until after christology had been pinned down. And so you have the late 3rd and 4th cs. dealing with the doctrine of the Trinity. But You didn’t ask for a history lesson. I reject that Jesus was in any way God, as in the one true God of the OT. I have many other reasons for rejecting the faith other than untenable doctrines. But that’s very much off topic for this thread. You can address me at any of the other threads related to that point that I’ve posted or message me personally :slight_smile:

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Absolutely agree (though 2 years ago I would’ve disagreed). As in my response to 03Cobra, I don’t believe in Christianity anymore for many reasons. The untenable, confusing doctrine of the trinity is just one of many. Feel free to response to one of the other posts I’ve made or message me personally as well :slight_smile:

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Alright Austin, be well.

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You may be correct.

We are called to follow Jesus, not to define Him or to understand everything about Him (as if that is even possible).

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Don’t let the errors of men turn you from the promises of God.

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Amen to that!

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If you do not need the Trinity to understand how Jesus, the Savior, can be both God and human, and that He died for the sins of humankind and arose from the dead, then that is fine. However other people might not understand the mind of God as well as you do.

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Thinking a human can understand the mind of God seems optimistic, at best.

I think MeanderTall’s point is that the doctrine of the Trinity is one complex fabrication which is far from certain fact.

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Genesis one in Hebrew describes God talking and breathing. Evidently. That became God and his word, and his breath personified, embodied.

And after that his word, and his spirit became the word, and the spirit.

So now there are 3 fully top tier divine entities in eternity beyond creation. First, the father in his person and next to him next to his throne, the word, and the spirit.

I think Bart Ehrman is broadly accurate in his book how Jesus became God. When he asserts that Jesus was protrayed in divine terms in spiritual competition with Pagan cults of the empire, especially the prominent Imperial cult of the Caesar’s and emperors.

Jesus was portrayed as more divine than any other figure. In Pagan Society, he was more demigod than Hercules and Alexander the Great. And more divine then Julius Caesar and Octavian Augustus (and the Ptolemaic Pharaohs of Egypt) and more the son of God, then each succeeding Caesar Emperor was the adopted son of the previous defied emperor. And so on.

The Trinity allows you to accomplish that Jesus Christ in his divine nature is literally. The next thing to the God the father himself in his person directly such that Jesus is more divine than any nephelim nimrod like figure prominent in previous prior Pagan Society.

Apparently, nobody stare directly at the Caesars. The Emperor’s full in the face and said “no. They are lying. They put their pants. On one leg at a time or there toga on one arm at a time” or what not.

Rather, the manifestation of Divinity in and around those persons was acknowledged and accepted. Only qualified by saying that the divine was even more manifest in Jesus than them.

If you are correct that strict unitarianism is correct, then there would have to be some sort of “reflected echo” of all of that Paganry overcome this way in modern Christianity.

Any variety of Christianity that portrayed Christ as “just some guy inspired to talk” did not overcome the Egyptian Pharaoh like Imperial Caesar cult of the empire. Only the variety that fought fire with fire and said “yes. But even more so for Christ” won.

The Christ, who did win and did emerge from Pagan Gentile society. Victorious was the Christ, who is the “true Pharaoh, the true Caesar”. The true incarnation of (Just about) the true divinity.

Not just “some guy on Earth inspired to talk on behalf of. Heaven”.

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What statement of faith is a certain fact?

Creationists tried to base science on faith. Does Meander want to base faith on science?

If you want to base our faith on the Apostle’s Creed some people will say that they do not believe that Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth and others will say she was not a perpetual Virgin.

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The God of Israel is not the god of Rome. The God of Israel is the God of love, justice, and freedom. The god of Rome is the god with the biggest balls. This also seems to be the god of the Mara Largo.

Jesus is God because He chose to die on the Cross rather than to lead a war against Rome, to heal rather than kill, to bless rather than curse, to love rather than hate. That is my kind of God. If you choose to reject Him as God, as the Second Person of the Trinity with Third Person as the Holy Spirit of Love, because of it, that is your problem.

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Christians are called to follow Jesus.

We are called to love one another.

We are not called to define God and excommunicate those who disagree with our definition.

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Christians are called to follow, and worship, Jesus, who is God.

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

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There are times when there are two mutually exclusive positions as with Arius, Pelagius, Joseph Smith, and Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Church makes a decision as to Church is called to what is right and what is wrong.

If the truth does not make any real sognificance, then who cares? If the church makes a mistake then we need to oppose that mistake believing that God will make it right.

I must admit that I do not have much sympathy for error today when many people seem to make a good living spreading lies

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Especially when these guys take the first shots at the orthodox position. Joseph Smith claimed that when he asked God which church to join, God told him not to join any of them because they were all an abomination. Of course, the Queen in Alice in Wonderland tried to believe in 6 impossible things before breakfast.

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Well, if it’s not actually true then you would acknowledge it as your problem?

My problem right now is just trying to figure out what is true not trying to reject truth or promote falsehood

Everything you just said about Jesus Christ, the Egyptian Pharaohs and Roman Imperial. Caesars said about themselves. Although they said it about other Divinities not the God the father in his person of the old and New Testament of the Bible.

In very general terms, the Christ you are portraying is. Identical to the pharaohs of Egypt and the Caesars of Rome and Heracles and Alexander the Great. And other demigods who portrayed themselves as Divine. Gods on Earth.

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Well, if 2 + 2 do Not equal 4 would that be a “problems?” No, because the whole system of natural would be faulty and nothing, esp. human life and culture could exist.

If God is not loving and just, that is not my problem. I still need to be loving and just like Jesus. I need to be like God, if God is right, which of course is not a problem, because we believe that God is loving and just.

However, it is true that the Quran says that Allah lies, so some people believe that God is not good. That s not my problem. That is the problem of Islam.

If you check it out, you will find that YHWH is the only God created the universe. That means that YHWH and Jesus are the only Beings Who know the universe and humans intimately. [Allah is a special situation as a cross between the God of the Philosophers and YHWH.]

You are operating in a classical two story universe that has no beginning. In this universe people must try to determine what is true for themselves. In God’s universe the Many must work together to be One universe. In God’s ecology the Many must work together to create One environment. In God’s Kingdom the Many must live and work together in harmony to create One world at peace.

What happens if we don’t? What happens if we destabilize the environment of the world? What happens if we wage war against each other?

Theology, esp. the Trinity, is important because it tells us that God is Love, Truth, and Good.

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It’s THE way to start a new religion, with compliments from Mohammed.

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