Defending the Tale of the Whale

No. It’s extremely unlikely that Ambulocetus evolved from Pakicetus. No-one who has taken the time to understand evolution would ever claim that. You are asking for verification of something no-one believes, in a way suggestive of you having learnt about ‘evolution’ from creationists, to a level of detail that no-one thinks is possible.

I could personally verify that creatures with features transitional between those of ancient land mammals and those of modern whales existed. I could personally verify that their remains are of appropriate ages. I could personally verify that the genetics of modern whales and modern land mammals are consistent with whales having evolved from land mammals in that time-frame.

Everything I can and did personally verify is consistent with whales having evolved from land mammals. So I accept that whales evolved from land mammals, not as a definite fact, but as the most likely possibility given the information currently available. No ‘belief’ is involved.

Many of the things I have personally verified are not consistent with whales having been created recently. So I reject the idea that whales were created a few thousand years ago. Again, no ‘belief’ is involved.

I’m not going to present the details of any of the things I have personally verified (i) because that would not make them things you have personally verified, and (ii) because if you were really interested you would have already verified them for yourself.

Your problem isn’t that you can’t verify things for yourself, it’s that you think you can’t (or you don’t want to), so you don’t try - and nothing I can write will change that.

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Im not suggesting it was a direct lineal line, sorry if that’s how that came out. I understand that’s not how it works. I did grow up accepting and believing in evo without question. It wasn’t until I became a christian that I came across the doubts and questions they have about it and why, which I found intriguing, so I try to be fair and learn and understand both sides. I see no harm in that in seeking the truth.

IYes, I accept that but I’ll rewrite that from my perspective.
I could personally verify that creatures with features [with claimed] transitional between those of ancient land mammals and those of modern whales existed.
The claimed transitional features are what is in question, not the animal.

What I use as a eg of verification is what we know happens.
eg being
Adaptation - darwins finches
speciation - Blackcap birds
Hybrids - Liger.

Even though I’ve never witnessed any of these personally myself I do accept and believe they are true and if I duplicated any of those eg as an experiment I would get basically the same result.

These eg don’t require belief as they’ve been observed and verified. Whale evo has not been observed, but I accept it maybe true, There just isn’t any eg we can use to verify a claim like that as a fact like those eg I used. So at best I can only accept and believe.

Just to be fair. I also jump onto Christian websites who claim they have proof of God . These sites really get up my nose as I know they don’t. The bible is a belief and it states it John 3:16. My take away from that is if man can prove God exist then the God you have verified is a fake God as only God himself can verify himself to us
Another point I wish to add is the claim that Sodom and Gommarah have been found. There is plenty of youtube video’s with this now. The fact of the matter is the evidence does line up with the biblical story and it indeed could be the biblical places of sodom and Gommorah, I am willing to accept and believe it is, but I also accept that it may not. It is just another unverifiable claim and anyone who wishes to accept that it has been found can only accept and believe that it is.

I use this same principle for both paradigms. When it comes to Historical science, be it biblical or mainstream. Verification just seems to be out of reach, especially for the layman. Maybe in the scientist world it has been verified, but from my position I can’t do it.
I can only accept and believe what scientist say, be it mainstream or biblical science and this is how I approach it. I know that is not the same for everyone and that is fine, so this is why I ask for verification of a claim. I don’t see why it is an issue to accept and believe. If I rejected God and went back to being and atheist, I would probably also accept and believe in evo again.

Just where in the text are you claiming to find this?

Sorry, but the stories are only superficially the same because the resulting rocks from the different stories would not be the same. Just one very basic difference is that if the YEC version were true then there would be no unbroken rock strata in uplifted mountains because those rocks would have to bend faster than is possible without them breaking; instead of nice layers there would be heaps of gravel and scree.

It only looks like a “scaled down version of the Grand canyon” to those who either have no idea what they’re looking at or to those trying to deceive others.

Yes – to be precise, they are trickles of water “leaking” up through the land from the “waters below”, the lower part of the great deep.

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There is definitely no harm in seeking the truth - but that’s not what you are doing.

Otherwise you’d know that many Christians do not have doubts and questions about evolution, and that most of the doubts and questions are based on being misinformed.

The transitional features are real. The transitional combinations of features are real. You’re not questioning those. You’re questioning whether they resulted from evolution, or from some other process that you haven’t described, and which we cannot see happening now.

We know evolution happens. You’re quibbling over the details of evolutionary history, not the reality of the process itself.

You’re also rejecting a geological history worldview with masses of evidence for it in favour of one for which there is no evidence at all. You aren’t aiming even a fraction of the ‘doubt’ you have about evolution towards creationism.

There is definitely no harm in seeking the truth - but that’s not what you are doing.

What one seeks as truth can be different from one person to the next depending on the topic. The truth I seek in this particular case is if someone can verify historical science eg Whale evo and if that person can clue me in on how they did it, to see if I also can verify it.

Otherwise you’d know that many Christians do not have doubts and questions about evolution, and that most of the doubts and questions are based on being misinformed.
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Yes, I’m aware of this fact. I pose the same question to them as well and get the same result. In most cases they simply say they believe in evolution because they trust the scientist who conduct the science.

Correct I am not questioning the features that are found in respective animals… I’ll use the eg of the plate like “sigmoid process” on Ambulocetus, which needs to evolve to a finger like sigmoid process" like that of a dolphin.
I’m simply trying to determine if there is a true link from one claimed transitional bone to another [evolution] or if they are simply different bones with no connection[ creation].
My question is, if there are any changes in ambulocetus fossils that show the beginnings of it going from plate like to finger like or do we only see those changes in a different animal altogether further down the line.
A change in the plate like sigmoid process within the fossils of ambulocetus will show definite support for a transition taking place.
A change that has taken place in a different animal will add support to the creationist argument.
I’m simply after an answer to that question. The approx time between Ambulocetus to Kutchicetus which is the next in line as far as I know based on what I’ve read is approx 2-4 mill years depending on what article you read, so time shouldn’t be a problem for some slight changes. I guess the next question would be what did the inner ear of Kutchicetus look like. Was the sigmoid process still plate like or half and half or was it finger like.

I don’t reject anything. I am seeing if I can personally verify a claim or can I only accept and believe the claim. Nothing is rejected. I just accept I don’t know what the truth is, but I do know what the claims are and I understand [usually based on evidence] why a claim is classed as the truth. I have no issue with what the truth turns out to be, but understanding what my true choices are is important and that is what I am seeking.
I know under the biblical paradigm it is accept and believe, john 3:16 verify’s this, so I know exactly where I stand with it.
People who believe in that paradigm will claim they can prove God or the stories in the bible as fact. I go after some of them as well. If someone can verify a claim in the bible or that God exist then that is a contradiction to what the bible says. If by chance we could prove the God of the bible to be true, then what the bible says about God and who he is, would be completely false. It would basically be like a snake eating itself.

That’s fair, I understand your point. I can add that to my list of questions. This is how I learn.
I won’t argue against your claim, because I can see the logic in it, but I can also see that the mountains you maybe referring to, aren’t the ones I’m suggesting where pushed upwards. The ones with multiple layerings in them were simply accumulated from tidal changes which added new layers from that process. These layers were not affected by continental collision I guess. Interesting all the same.

The yec actually use the unbroken bent rock strata in the grand canyon as evidence for the flood. The strata still soft when it was pushed up in those particular area’s then hardened in the state we see today.
Like most of this stuff be it for creation or evo, I just leave it all on the table of unverfied and leave it to the experts to dish out their respective claims. I’m up front that I don’t know how the layers or the unbroken bent rocks got there, but I’m prepared to listened to both sides and see what they have to say.

Are you basing that on what we see today or a biblical interpretation suggesting that the fountains of the deep in the Bible were just small springs. I’m very interested to see this.

It only looks like a “scaled down version of the Grand canyon” to those who either have no idea what they’re looking at or to those trying to deceive others.

Let’s go through your explanation of the mt st Helens Mini GC, so I have a record of this interpretation of what we see, so I have a better understanding of it.

The YECists lie about there being unbroken bent rock strata!

I was going to post the infamous photo which proves that statement but I can no longer find it online. Did AiG etired of being called on the lie? If anyone is able to post it I would appreciate it.

On the text, specifically on the meanings of the words. What Genesis is saying is that God cracked open those small passages so water from the great deep would surge up onto the land.
(Maybe I’m having a bad-google day; I can’t find the Jewish translation that sticks to the original meaning that has been linked here before.)

I don’t have a full explanation; someone else may know a link to a good one. I do have a pair of observations that make the comparison totally invalid:

  1. the geometry of the two features are very different
  2. the formation at St. Helens is formed of volcanic debris, whereas there is very little volcanic-source material at the Grand Canyon.

These two, which are obvious to an educated observer, make any comparison between the so-called “mini Grand Canyon” and the actual one useless.

The blog entry here is helpful:

Oh – one other point: geologists have realized that the Grand Canyon started out as several separate canyons that got linked, not as a single feature – read here:

Though the article would have been more useful if it had included a map!

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You will have to specifically point out the lie.

Here’s a couple of clips to look at of bent rock. Looks clear to me. As usual it will be the alternating interpretations on how it got that way that will be in conflict. But the bent rock from what I’m seeing looks real. Does it look real to you or am I seeing something that’s just in my imagination

[quote=“St.Roymond, post:69, topic:43863”]
On the text, specifically on the meanings of the words. What Genesis is saying is that God cracked open those small passages so water from the great deep would surge up onto the land.

Well, that does match fountains of the deep doesn’t it. It doesn’t matter if they were small to begin with. They broke opened and water surged out of them. Seems clear to me.

[quote=“St.Roymond, post:69, topic:43863”]

  • the geometry of the two features are very different
  • the formation at St. Helens is formed of volcanic debris, whereas there is very little volcanic-source material at the Grand Canyon.

I don’t think anyone is saying the geometry was the same. There’s no reason for it to be the same with different land formations and materials and sheer water volume differences.
What they are talking about is that they both have layering’s in them and it looks similar. Mt st Helen’s we can confirm it was by water that had burst through the dam and cleared out about a depth of 100-150 ft of material and left a view of the layering that had built up over that short period of time, which I think was about 1 year after the eruption. Don’t quote me on that last bit. .

Same with your second point. It isn’t about the materials in the respective Canyons. One is directly from a volcano [mt st Helens] we know that, and the other was from a variety of materials. Rocks, sand, gravel, ash etc etc etc.

The problem I have with articles claiming old earth or young earth as well, is they are unverifiable to me. I accept one maybe right or both could be wrong, but my whole point to these conversations I’m having is not to prove yec or fight against old earth, but show that this argument is unverifiable, to me anyway. Nothing more nothing less, which makes them by default a belief.
This is where the bible is different r/e to the age of the earth. It is a belief. Once you understand that, the realisation of not verifying the age of the earth doesn’t actually matter, which I’m completely at ease with. As it stands the bible doesn’t tell us the age of the earth, so it could be as old as scientist say or a whole lot older or younger, we simply don’t know 100%
The 6k years for yec come from the ages of Adam through to Jesus.
There is plenty of argument that the days in the 6 day creation week doesn’t represent a 24 hr day. This maybe true, but I can’t confirm that. Usually I ask people how long is an evening and a morning last for during that creation week.

Either way I have no issues with a young earth or a old 4.3 bill yr old earth or even older. Not really relevant in my day to day life as it currently stands.

Back in high school, I was quite the little creationist (OEC). I attacked evolution in debate clubs; gave speeches in English class to positive reception.

I trusted what I read in Acts and Facts and other creationist literature of the day. In my latter 20s, as I became aware of the scale of misrepresentation that I had absorbed, it became clear that my trust was misplaced and I had been played. It took me some years to clear my head and get my life back on track.

And the war against science continues to this day, organizationally stronger than ever. Even the pretense of academic rigor and engagement with other experts has been put aside for an industry targeted to lay people, of web sites, amusement parks, museums, curriculum, conferences, tours, and movies all in the service of denying reality.

So do not tell me that I accept evolution just because I trust scientists.

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This is my point. You trust the scientist. You accept and believe what they say is the science of our true origins and maybe it is, I don’t know . That is fine, that is your choice to do so, as long as you understand that is what you’re doing.
The fact is you or maybe just I can’t personally verify these things, so the default position is to accept and believe what is told to us based on the trust you are willing to have for these people, who I’m sure are very trustworthy people anyway. I can’t confirm this as I’ve never met them, but if you’re happy with that set up than go for it.

I do understand what I am doing, but trust need not be not blind nor uniformed. I reject your insinuation that science is equivalent to pseudoscience and that people who are not scientists are not equipped to discern the difference.

We live in a technical society which assumes and demands a level of scientific literacy. People have unprecedented access to a wealth of primary scientific literature. There is free and open access to the same genetic and paleontological databases used by researchers. One can download raw data from the JWST if inclined. By virtue of a high school education, anyone should have the algebra and physics skills needed to debunk idiocies like rocks blasting from Earth to the moon.

Evaluating the claims and evidence presented by scientists is not only possible, but a reasonable expectation of an informed person.

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Well, that rules me out, I simply don’t have the science nouce to verify scientific claims as the age of the earth or ool or whale evo… Good for you if you can or have.
I’m not insinuating pseudoscience towards mainstream. pseudoscience is easily debunked isn’t it. My point is I can’t verify Historical science such as those 3eg. All I can do is accept and believe it on face value…
I leave it open if it can be shown to me how
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The first video doesn’t show anything clearly enough to even tell what they’re talking about. And the line, “It looks like soft sediment deformation” is a laugh; from that high up there’s no way to tell that.

The second video just lies by omission: rock bending can occur without fracturing the rock if it happens slowly enough, the speed being dependent on pressure and temperature.

Not just water, water from the great deep that fills the universe – that’s the ‘cosmology’ of the ANE and the OT. That source is beneath the underworld where Sheol is located, under the flat earth-disk under its solid sky-dome that keeps the waters above, the portion of the great deep that lies above the earth-disk, from surging down and destroying the earth.

Yes, there is, and it’s called “physics”: unconsolidated sediments cannot sustain the kinds of slopes that consolidated rock can, which means that the Grand Canyon and its “mini” version are two entirely different phenomena, one having been cut while the rock was solid and the other cut through unconsolidated sediments.

Which is on the order of arresting someone for having red hair as a robber was reported to have even though the robber was 6 feet 4 inches tall and slender while the guy being arrested is 5 feet 8 inches tall and obese – superficial similarities pointed to while major differences are ignored.

Of course it is: you can’t say that a formation cut in one kind of material demonstrates that a feature in an entirely different kind of material was cut the same way; it’s like expecting to find dunes built of gravel in a river flood plain because you see dunes of sand along a beach. Different materials cut in different ways.

Except that the YEC version relies on lying by ignoring vast amounts of data while the OE version relies on careful measurement and physics.

But there is a lot we do know 100%, such as the ages of uplifted mountain ranges and the angles of repose of different materials under different conditions – those are based on physics, in fact on physics that apply to the construction of highways and canals, of dams and building foundations. Sure, it means using algebra and geometry and calculus, but those apply to the ordinary world in ways that if YEC was correct would mean that a lot of things we build – such as highway bridges – are inherently unsafe, which we know they aren’t because we’ve been building them for over a century and haven’t had the kinds of disasters we should have seen.
Here’s an example of a difference which proves that the Grand Canyon is not young: first, assume that somehow the GC sediments were cut by retreating flood waters and didn’t just collapse into the growing watercourse; then ask what would we see along the edges of the canyon. One huge thing we would see but don’t are the crumbling blocks of sediment spread along the sides, formed by differential drying – the exposed material would dry faster and contract, causing fissures that would progress inward into the sediments, causing faster drying in those fissures, until the still-wet material at the back ends of those fissures failed and the drier blocks detached due to gravity. Another is that wet sediments don’t turn into rock, the water has to mostly come out first, and when you have strata as distinct as in the GC the water would ooze along the boundaries between the strata, causing two things: streaks on the canyon walls as minerals carried by the water stained the rock they were flowing over, and sagging exposed strata due to near-saturation by the escaping water.

If the only point is that there are layers, so what? Layers can form in numerous ways, so the fact that two different formations have layers is meaningless.

So we do know 100% that the Earth is not young; from physical aspects of rocks we know that it is at the very least several hundreds of thousands of years old.

Which is based on imposing a modern scientific worldview onto the scriptures. It’s an approach based on assuming that the historical context is irrelevant, specifically in the case of the “begats” that ages and generations got recorded the way a modern genealogist would – but we know that in the ANE genealogies weren’t done that way; they used symbolic ages, felt free to skip generations, often ignored embarrassing ancestors, and even invented connections that were pure fabrication. Though I shouldn’t limit that to the ANE; the Greeks and Romans did the same thing, making genealogies that purported to show that a certain king was descended from Ulysses or a certain general had Apollo himself as an ancestor (there are even genealogies that trace a lineage back to someone of whom it is known they had no children!).

It’s also a bit of misdirection. Within the structure of either of the two literary types to which the opening Creation account conforms the days are meant to be taken as ordinary days, but they are not meant to be taken that way WRT anything outside the story. Modern western minds have trouble grasping that way of thinking, but it was common those millennia ago.

Isn’t it odd that the sequence “evening … morning” doesn’t describe a day but rather a night?
In the ANE pretty universally darkness and thus the night were seen as enemies of order, a foe to be fought starting every evening continuing through morning in order to keep the passage of the sun on his barque or in his chariot clear so the sun could rise again for a new day. But the Genesis writer was having none of this: by including the period of night as the last part of each day he relegated the night to the position of just one more thing that YHWH-Elohim had decreed – no battle needed because YHWH-Elohim was in fact the Creator also of the night. It was a major slam on the entire ANE understanding of the relationship between deity and darkness; all the gods of all the nations were seen as potentially in danger, capable of losing the battle against night and thus surrendering existence to chaos, but YHWH-Elohim’s “battle” had been won the moment He had separated darkness from light and given useful darkness its name: “night”. Night was transformed from being a time of worry and terror to one for sleep and rest with the result of having the energy to face a new day.
In the YEC version that “evening . . . morning” refrain is just a marker of time. When the Creation story is read as an ancient Israelite would have heard it, it is rich with theology!

Quite true. Oddly, it also isn’t relevant to evangelism; Jesus never said, “Go then and fight to make Genesis understood scientifically” – in fact He didn’t even mention Genesis in His message, instead saying, “Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy-burdened, and I will give you rest”. Yet millions of dollars and millions of man-hours are thrown into an endeavor that by my observations only serves to make people turn away from Christ!

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Sounds like the actual goal is to make money.

I once talked with a lady who was going to attend a YEC presentation/seminar that would last half a day. I talked to her again afterwards and she had a useful comment: she couldn’t see how a single thing that got said could be of any use in her spiritual life! And another, that the speakers spent a lot of time urging people to buy their books and DVDs.
I pointed out that the Didache had some not very savory things to say about such preachers.

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There’s a thing called “sampling” that applies somewhat: in more than one university science course there were opportunities to select labs to be done, and interestingly most of the time the class choice was to do something that could make or break some long-held position in that field. It was a way for professors to communicate that we weren’t expected to believe everything just because it came from the course textbook or from lecture, we could test places where we had questions. In fact in one course student teams got to design experiments trying to show that some principle was in fact wrong!

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I’m certainly not denying that this occurs in universities and so it should. That is how they should work. I don’t deny as well that what I am talking about here did in fact take place. I fully accept the possibilities of evolution as it is stated in full.

My position is I cannot verify the claims, which means I have to either accept and believe they are true or not, or at best not commit myself to the claim, but leave it open .
To be a bit clearer.
Even though I haven’t personally seen these eg in person myself I do accept and believe these eg are true, verified and factual.
11 - Speciation blackcap birds. 2 different species.
2 - Hybridization Ligers
3 - Adaptation Darwin’s finches.
4 - Fossils of a pakicetus and Ambulocetus.

The claim there was an evolutionary process between Pakicetus and Ambulocetus is outside of the observable for everyone. There is evidence that can be used to support the claim, I acknowledge that and don’t deny the possibility of this claim occurring based on the evidence, it just isn’t verifiable to me in any way. I can only accept and believe it to be true and at this point in time I remain uncommitted to this claim being verified and true…
I

Hi Rhythmic Supercat. First of all, an encouragement. You are brave to have this conversation in this place, with many scientific voices giving hard pushback. You have focussed on the issues and not made it personal, which I for one greatly appreciate.

I am not a scientist at all. I know that if I plug the kettle into the socket, I’ll soon get boiling water for my coffee, but beyond that I’m dead in the water. So I have no interest in arguing the merits of fossil analysis and DNA studies. But I am a trained biblical and legal scholar, as well as a Christian who was once an atheist. I’m willing and interested in having a conversation with you on the underlying knowledge and worldview issues, if that’s helpful.

For example, you talk about some truth claims which you accept, and others which you don’t. But your reasons for making those distinctions seem inconsistent to me. Take adaptation (Darwin’s finches) as a test case. You say you accept this as true. But you also say you haven’t seen them for yourself. This seems to me precisely the reason why you reject wider evolution. So my question for you is:

Why precisely have you accepted the above list items as factual? What is your methodology here?

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I actually use the very first example of the Pakistan area whale findings as an example of somewhat excessive reconstruction - only a skull was found, but the Journal of Geological Education published a picture reconstructing the whole body. Of course, mollusks fall apart into fewer pieces than vertebrates, so I probably have some bias from my research area. However, quite good skeletons have been found since then. One important complication in the interpretation of claims that the skeleton was x% complete is the fact that vertebrates, and most other animals, are bilaterally fairly symmetric. If I only find a left leg, I can be rather confident about what the right leg looked like. Does the reported % complete reflect that? Is it number of bones, or proportion of the body? There are a lot of little bones that are easily lost and that don’t tell as much about major evolutionary changes, compared to what a few key big bones call tell you. For example, knowing how long all the finger and toe bones were and how they were shaped would give insight into the locomotion patterns in the early whales, but the basic body plan is evident from what we have, even with many foot bones missing.

On fluke motion, the up and down bending is the body, not just the tail, and so does not correspond to wagging a tail. In reality, that is one of the features that particularly reflects ancestry form land-dwelling mammals. Developing a relatively even pair of tail fins to help power efficient swimming is common - several fish and ichthyosaurs develop this as well, and some degree of tail fin is found in many of the more thoroughly aquatic reptiles. But whales are exceptional in having their flukes go out to each side, not vertically. As synapsids developed more efficient land locomotion and breathing, they decreased side to side bending, relying on moving legs under the body. The body developed more vertical bending, in support of the leg extension. When mammals have taken back to the water, they often have a more horizontally developed tail instead of vertically, corresponding to the heritage of different body bending on land.

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Heh Peter, Thanks for your question. If you re-read my comment. You will see I haven’t accepted those eg as factual, I have accepted and believe them to be factual. Along with belief comes the realisation you could be wrong, but in the case of those eg I can go and see for myself if they are true or not.

In each case though, I am confident I could conduct those studies and experiments, and if these eg are true as written and displayed, then I should net approximately the same results as written.

The difference with Whale evo is yes I am confident I could dig up fossils of Pakicetus and other animals along the whale evo line and verify they do exist, this will include the claimed transitional parts [inner ear] of an animal that scientist concluded was a transitional fossil between one animal to the next and in this case a whale, but that is where reality ends and imagination takes over. For me personally I don’t have a lot of trust in my imagination when seeking the truth.

All explanations for whale evo usually come in the form of a science paper I can’t decipher or ask questions to the scientist who prepared it, drawings or cgi videos. From there I can only accept and believe from that point onwards that the animal did in fact change into another animal completely different from its original self. We don’t observe this happening in the wild and we can’t go back 50 million years to observe it.

At the end of the day as I always say. I don’t disregard that this happened, I’m just not able to personally verify an animal changing into another animal, so from where I sit, my position is I can only accept and believe it did.

My methodology I guess you could say is a couple of biblical principles.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
and doubting Thomas who needed to place his fingers into the wounds of Christ to verify he indeed did rise from the dead.

We are then in the same boat apart from being a trained biblical and legal scholar. I’m a spirit lead person [last 35 yrs] doing my best understanding the spiritual and physical world. I grew up as an atheist and believer of Evolution. I never questioned it as I didn’t think for a sec I needed to, but something changed and turned me around 180 degrees and I now see the world differently compared to my younger growing up days. Now I’m seeing what is verifiable and what is belief. The thing I like about the bible is it says it is a belief. There is nothing hidden.

Yes I’m willing to have a conversation with you on worldview issues. I can’t say for certain if that type of conversation will be welcome here, as it is about whale evolution, so we may of to opt for a different line of communication..

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