I can see where you’re coming from. I think it is similar just because life is life. life is obviously possible since we exist, I don’t see why I cant be again. Again though, totally get it, seems very improbable sometimes.
Well that’s kind of what I meant. I didn’t mean there would be a complete lack of warning signs and biological function. I stated already in a previous post that pain is a good thing on its own.
When I said pain here, I was referring to pain experienced when something unfair happens, from the result of someone’s sinful action (I.e. rejection, murder, torture, etc.) obviously we can’t sin in heaven.
To me though, that is blissful, and blissful just means extremely happy, which is I think at least something you can expect. Surely since we can be blissful on Earth it will be so in heaven? I was not trying to say a complete lack of any pain. It is similar to what RichardG said though about heaven not necessarily following the rules of Earth, I mean it will be renewed, whether with pain or not.
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It is interesting that if you look at all except a few outliers in the Old Testament, most good Jewish folk would agree with you, so maybe it is not just you. 
Being faithful as a part of Israel and preserving that heritage for future generations was seen as good enough of a reason to live a righteous life as there was no real afterlife seen, just a shadowy Sheol. I think one of the major problems with modern Christianity is its emphasis in some circles, especially evangelical, of it being transactional, and heaven being a reward for right belief.
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I believe in an afterlife, but in the Hebrew scriptures the afterlife was a shadowy underworld. And most Jews today don’t believe in life after death; they prefer to make this life better.
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That depends on one’s definition of “better”. I chugged ice-cold milk this morning until I felt stable enough to walk to the store for meds for the symptoms after confirming last night that this is a recurrence of my chronic viral bronchitis; it pops up when I’m thoroughly worn out, highly stressed, and/or chilled (which is why I tended to take Incompletes every winter term!); for various reasons all those applied on the 3rd. So now I can breathe evenly, walk without worry about balance, and even eat a few bites of something mild.
I thought retirement would make this a thing of the past . . . .
Now that’s a chilling thought, accentuated by the fact that I read a long discourse on what constitues prime horror movies today!
I can, from a different perspective: in my life it’s been when I’m tackling a real challenge that I’ve found “pure joy and bliss”, whether it was backpacking the Pacific Crest Trail, rafting down a river that was half rapids, dismantling a Hebrew construct to find the word root within, or sweating over improvements to a hiking path to make it safer. I’m not sure I can picture joy and bliss apart from that, with one exception: the Eucharist.
Now if Heaven means no challenges, no sweat, no unrewarded service . . . can I go live on a planet again?
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It certainly can, and in that passage I don’t think that “pain” is a good choice. In fact I think the KJV actually mellows that verse down; the word rendered as “crying” isn’t that mild, either, they’re pretty stark terms. The problem with ponos, though, is that it can indicate merely “work”, and I can’t conceive of existence with no work at all as much fun; I’d at least want to tackle projects and choose my own hours.
Of course there’s pain, and then there’s pain, better called “agony”. I could do without the latter.
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God
cannot
be
bought
!
And He doesn’t appreciate it when we try, no matter what approach we use.
Heaven is not a reward, it’s the natural consequence of being part of God’s Family.
That would rule out Hell then
Richard
Why? It may be the very one thing that actually rules Hell in! If Heaven is being in God’s family, Hell is probably the best description of trying to live apart from that community or Kingdom.
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Because God is father of all. In that sense we are all part of His family. Jesus said His brothers etc were those who do the Father’s bidding. Well, God gave us free choice. That is His bidding. Free choice means no carrot or stick. If God wanted us to only obey Him He would have made things that way.
I am probably being a little too literal, but…
If you cannot buy your way into Heaven how can you sell yourself out? If actions are meaningless… we must take it both ways!
Richard
I’m probably just not understanding something here. I too believe in free choice. And I think life is chock full of both carrots and sticks (which I think of as consequences). So I don’t think of our actions as being meaningless at all!
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Sorry, that was probably the equivalent of shorthand.
The carrot being Heaven and the stick being Hell
A free choice can only be truly free if there is no one standing with a gun pointed at your head. (Or conversely a massive reward for choosing the other way).
That probably goes without saying, until we compare the notion of Heaven and Hell. You g to Heaven if you behave well (or are forgiven) and go to Hell if you behave badly (or aren’t forgiven?) which makes the choices in our lives not free. We are (can be) conscious of the consequences of our actions and therefore can feel compelled to behave in a certain manner.
If someone has lead a life of their choosing which des not match up to (God’s?) standards they are automatically punished witch means that they were never free. They actually had a gun pointing at their head but just didn’t know it. Which is more unfair because of the fact that they didn’t know
IOW if God has allowed us free choice He cannot punish us for the choices we make. Hell cannot exist if we have a genuine free choice. The Jewish Sheol would be the only answer. God, having promised Heaven, must make sure everyone gets there otherwise life is no longer free…
Rather blows Christianity out of the window, if Heaven or Hell are any part of it.
Instead Christianity becomes the message of comfort.
Don’t worry, whatever you have done, God will forgive you and allow you into Heaven
Um, er…
Sorry Paul
Richard
Okay, you’re on a cruise ship and it is sinking. You have a free choice: head for a lifeboat or go down with the ship (or try to swim on your own, I suppose).
I’ve never regarded Hell as a “stick”, in fact I remember getting disgusted with a Methodist preacher who went on about God using Hell to scare us into Heaven. Hell is what results from freely deciding to not enter a lifeboat.
Well sure - of course! I understood all that perfectly well.
What I was struggling with (and don’t understand still) is why you think free will is preclusive of any sort of persuasion. In western society, we are constantly bombarded with marketing that tries to tempt us toward all sorts of choices on offer. Does that mean we no longer have free will?! Or there are punishments for crimes - possible fines, prison sentences, or even worse! How does that knock out our free will? I mean - yes - it does chip away around some of the edges. So I can’t just rob a bank without expecting that my life as a criminal will (quite justly) become very difficult and bad for me. So yeah - in one sense, I have no choice but to refrain from criminal activity if I don’t want the law breathing down my neck. But … I still have a choice! I could still choose a life of crime - and all too many do. Or rich uncle Joey can say he’ll pay your entire way through college. But only if you attend his alma mater. Anywhere else; and you’re on your own. So has uncle Joey taken away your free will? Hardly.
Of course we can be punished for choices we freely make and that are within our domain of possible options. We can be punished explicitly (as in getting caught for breaking the law), or implicity (as in just facing the consequences for stupid or evil choices we make.) In fact … it would be in the absence of free will that punishment would stop making sense; would it not?
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We could spend a lifetime discussing and clarifying Freedom & Free Will. (and probably have already started elsewhere)
As far as I am concerned, free will means the ability to make any choice within the boundaries of the options available. There are always boundaries or parameters through which we cannot pass or have to conform, but
In terms of freedom of choice there should be no bias or consequence that makes one choice preferable or shall we say damaging.
In terms of robbing a bank there are definite adverse consequences, and, a possible advantage. Your choice becomes a balance between possible (known) dangers or rewards. If you can “risk” the dangers then you might aim for the reward. The choice is still free.
However, if you are not awre (do not believe) there are dangers you cannot take them into account when making your “free” choice".
The sinking boat is different inasmuch as there is only one viable “choice” It is only free if you are prepared to drown (or have another viable alternative because the lifeboat may not save you)
If every / any choice can result in Hell then we are not free. Even if we are not aware of hell, it would make no difference. Freedom cannot have a certain negative outcome that we dare not, or cannot avoid.
We do right because it is right, not because of any punishment or reward. The choice must be free from consequences or it is not free.
Some people find prison a safe haven, where they do not have to make choices, but can be “free” to just live. Prison then is no longer a deterrent, more of a reward!
The point about Heaven and Hell is that they are considered both absolute and eternal. No one in their right minds would deliberately aim for Hell. So if Hell exists and is a possibility no action is free. We do not have a freedom of choice because Hell is not a viable option in any one’s book… We cannot live freely with the proverbial sword of Damocles (AKA Hell) hanging over us. And that would apply even if we did not believe in Hell because the reality would still exist.
IOW freedom of choice means no consequences. The fact that every choice has consequences is irrelevant Part of freedom is to decide on the consequences as best you can (Sometimes things intrude and change the results) But, the ultimate consequence cannot be Hell.(or heaven) because in terms of God we would always have to factor His ideals into our decisions. Life becomes a permanent trial, not freedom.
Richard
PS it would also be an unfair test because not everybody would realise it existed or that they were taking part, especially if the result is eternal.
This is philosophical thumb-twiddling; it may be a nice concept but it has no bearing on reality. There is always bias or consequence.
Can you live freely when you have an incurable cancer?
That’s pretty much how the scriptures portray it:
“I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.”
Yo seem to be deliberately missing the point.
It is not about whether there is consequences at all, only eternal ones.
Same thing. It is not about death and dying. That is a certainty Afterlife? Not so certain.
I think you need to read Ecclesiastes again if that is how you read it.
It is not about how tiresome or frustrating life is. It is about whether God insists on a way of life or not. If He does we are not free. If He doesn’t then we are.
And if He does insist on a way of life He should tell the millions or so who cannot see or believe in Him.
Richard
Yeah, I think a lot of the emphasis is placed on heaven and hell, which is not where the emphasis should be placed IMO. Heaven and Hell aren’t rewards or punishments, just consequences of the choices you make I guess? One is more likely more enjoyable though, but it more like a choice of life rather than whatever hell is. I think the emphasis of Christianity should be placed more on our mission on Earth.
There is one verse that says all will be reconciled to God in the end. I mean if wickedness is truly destroyed, unless a person was wholly evil (which I don’t believe to be possible) there still leaves some part of a person which isn’t destroyed by default then.
Before passing comment I would need to see that verse. Forgive me, but taking a singe verse out of context can produce a meaning that was not necessarily intended.
Richard