Fallen humanity, even the disobedient son, would accuse God of their failures, resent their sufferings, even hate God for death in the world as they BLAME God for it all; I believe to be a reflection of the MOST ANCIENT of provocations made by the god of this world, Satan. And as with ANY apostate comment, evil narrative and downright obscene comment, there is always the admixture of truth with error. In SHORT… Satan is CORRECT. Why? SO long as God ALLOWS creation to sin against Him, suffering, BOTH human and even in nature itself, WILL continue. But contrary to the Atheist belief, and actual desire, IT WILL END.
Are you suggesting that atheists want suffering to continue? I’m surprised. Not only atheists are a very mixed bag, but a great majority of them desires an end to human (and animal) suffering. As a matter of fact there are atheists who left religion precisely because they thought it was propagating suffering. So perhaps you might want to justify this statement?
Speaking as an atheist, I absolutely desire an end to human suffering.
The atheist easily resolves the problem of suffering through the realization that the universe is indifferent to our suffering. It is only us who cares about human suffering, so it is up to us to limit it or end it.
I think that the intended point was that atheists, by desiring their own way, are not actually leading in the correct direction towards the end of suffering, rather than a Freudulent-like accusation that all atheists actually want suffering to persist. (Of course, as already noted, “atheist” is a quite mixed bag, just as “theist” is.) But it is true that, like almost any short statement, the OP would benefit from a good deal more nuance and explanation.
There has long been speculation on what role Satan might have in the conditions for non-human life before the fall of humans. The Bible simply doesn’t tell us at what point he fell. Although Isaiah 14 has often been claimed to portray Satan’s fall, it seems to actually be spoofing Phoenician mythology to predict the downfall of its rulers. Also, it gives no information that would actually let us connect the events portrayed to calendar history, if they were intended as such. Might the fall of humans or Satan’s fall have effects on conditions in the pre-human geologic past? Perhaps, but again that’s in the realm of speculation. It’s also important not to attribute too much power to Satan.
Another difficulty is the basic assumption that physical death and suffering are inherently bad. Most of the health problems from leprosy come from the damage the disease does to pain sensing. Not feeling pain leaves the patient prone to all sorts of injuries, from dry eyes due to not blinking in response to pain sensors to damaged extremities and more. No doubt it’s no fun for a gazelle to be a lion’s dinner, but ecology with a balance of predators, prey, producers, and parasites works and produces impressive diversity. Perhaps the instinct of a four year old in seeing Tyrannosaurus as really cool is more sound than the sentiment that pain is inherently bad. Likewise, natural disasters are disasters only if we have gotten in their way, not if they happen where no one is afflicted. Of course, that does not mean that we should not work to alleviate suffering, but simply that alleviating suffering is not the highest goal.
Greetings and welcome, Pastor Lantz.
Would you please explain further?
Maybe you can also tell us more about yourself.
I’m a missionary kid from Africa, currently living in Michigan (where my parents are from), for example. It’s a lot colder here–but I like both groups of people.
Thank you
Randy
I challenge that…the bible is quite specific about ending pain and suffering by restoring us and the world back to its former state. Christ suffered considerably before dying on the cross. He was physically tortured, verbally ridiculed, even tempted to us his power to escape what he was enduring… or are you going to claim he did not suffer on the cross?
Its silly to attempt to separate out into unrelated parts of our reality, pain, suffering, death, destruction…that is the entire problem with TEism…its forced to cast aside realities because including them stuffs our philsophical theology.
The biblical fact is, pain, suffering and death are direct consequences of sin enterring this world. It is Satans goal to cause as much of this as he possibly can. Meandering around it results in a confused theological mess.
What I said is that alleviating suffering is not the highest goal. I did not say that it was not a part of the goal. But it is not God’s top priority - He can use suffering to achieve the higher goal of perfecting us spiritually.
But if YEC is truly based on the philosophical writings rather than on the claims about science, why does it not work to correct and improve the claims about science, admitting where the science poses a problem?
Don’t you think that is a rather brash generalisation? Why must an atheist be selfish? Because of some imposed trait imposed by the ancestor of Judaism? Look around you. People are not all self centered and cruel. There are many who help or look to improve the life of others who are not “saved” Christians!
So you are saying that we go against the natural order of the universe? (being indifferent to suffering) Where have you gotten the idea that you “suffer” other than it just being pain receptors telling you that it is bad for your survival. I agree that most atheists do not want suffering, but there is no basis to believe that you actually are if you are an atheist as you believe you eventually become nothing, no? There would then be no point in saying you “suffer” since it is meaningless. If I am wrong about that assumption please correct me.
Why are there things that are bad for our survival?
The basis is my subjective human emotions which are perhaps the most important part of the human experience. Before I die I have these emotions and these experiences, and they are the most important things to me.
You are very, very wrong. I am not nothing. I don’t see why my life becomes nothing if death is the end of my life.
Yes you are going against the natural order of the universe because if it is indifferent to suffering and you are not then you are contradicting it. I think you misunderstood my second point, I was asking how you know that you are actually suffering and not just experiencing your pain receptors feeling pain, which they are there to warn you that something is hurting you. If the basis is subjective then the answer is no, there is no concrete basis to believe you are “absolutely” suffering. Its just your opinion which changes depending on the human. Finally, I didn’t say you were nothing. I said that when you die you become nothing according to most atheists. Most atheists believe you stop existing when your life ends, so everything you think, say, do, and feel becomes absolutely pointless as there will be no people, universe, or you to care. It’s a lack of anything to ever actually think what you felt was worth anything. I’m not saying it is pointless right now, to you, in the present. I’m saying that in the end it doesn’t mean anything unless you believe you live after you die, which makes perfect sense.
I am part of the natural order, so there is one species that is not indifferent to suffering.
Why would there be anything in this creation that could hurt you?
Subjective is good enough. I couldn’t care less if there is lack of objective suffering. The love I have for others, the feeling of community when I help others, and the wonderful experiences I have in life are all subjective, and they are still important even if others have different opinions. I would suggest that the most important things in your life are also subjective.
I care right now. Life isn’t pointless just because our life ends. What I pass on to others while I am alive is also very important to me.
That’s a rather sad view of life, in my opinion. It seems you are missing out on a very wonderful human life.
So you are part of the natural order, yet your instinct goes against the instinct of the universe which is to not care about suffering?
Sure, subjective opinions could be good enough, but when you are talking about truth they aren’t. Truth is objective not subjective. If you want truth, subjective opinions won’t cut it. It seems to me that you aren’t a materialist though. I am making assumptions here to please correct me if needed. You talk about love and feeling of community and life experience. You talk about them being subjective. They aren’t. The value of them may not be, but the experiences feelings of them are. It seems to me to be an emotional problem rather than an intellectual one for you. I don’t know why good things don’t cause you to believe in God, but bad things cause you to not believe in God.
Yes I already pointed out that it is meaningful while you are alive. Yes, if the universe comes to an end and everyone dies, what is it meaningful to or to whom is it meaningful. It seems that you presuppose its meaning to something or someone implying that nothing actually truly dies, that there is an afterlife to which is gives meaning?
That last point is me using an atheist logic that I hear quite often. It is not my actual view and none of what I’m saying actually is. I am merely trying to understand your line of thought because it doesn’t make sense to me.
You asked in your second point why there are things in creation that can hurt you, I don’t know, honestly. I don’t think there is any reason that it should contradict the existence of God, the best defense I can give on a forum post would be the freewill defense.
I will restate once more, that this is merely assumptions from me to understand better what you are saying and are not my actual view of life. This is just how I understand what you are saying to me.
I am merely pointing out that if everything eventually returns to nothing, kidney stones don’t mean anything in a real sense. If everything becomes nothing it doesn’t mean anything ultimately unless you suppose an afterlife, I don’t know how how else to put it.
The universe is indifferent to what you think it should be indifferent to.
Now there is a distinction without a difference.
Suffering is absolutely subjective.
Let’s suppose you are right for the sake of discussion. What then? Here in the present, alive and breathing, what exactly do you suggest?
I’m a theist, but I never have understood the attitude of “Stop being happy you oblivious atheist! You’re not supposed to care about anything! Live in a miserable existential crisis like you are supposed to!”