Death and suffer question EASILY resolved

Faith & Science Conversation
41

Now when you look up “holiness” in the dictionary you get this Pharisaical notion of holiness which was all about what was considered unclean, but Jesus criticized this with the parable of the good Samaritan. Often Christians have used this rhetoric about God not being able to abide sin, and I think Jesus blew this type of thinking out of the water by associating with sinners. So I don’t buy into that sort of “holiness.”

But, I came across this site describing six characteristics of holiness: humility, love, tolerance, discipline, peace, and faithfulness (from Mark 9:33-34). Now that I can believe in, and particularly as a description of God Himself.

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42

Of course not, but it is still a matter of perception. The ideal of heaven cannot exist alongside freedom of choice or any sort of predation or even feeding. Without death there can be no new life. Just the existence of some creatures causes pain and suffering, but without them the balance of the world collapses.

you cannot eliminate illness, or hurt. Every time humans have tired to change things that they see as harmful or dangerous they cause more problems than they solve. We do not, even now, fully understand the minutia of Ecology.

To do so would be to prevent all sport or recreational activity. Anything that might cause damage to a person. As if there aren’t enough health and safety measures in place, you would increase the burden 100 fold. or more.

It doesn’t matter which illness or affliction you target. Even Cholera, Rabies, and Small Pox still exist. And you have no idea what would happen if you killed every mosquito that carries Malaria.

Cancer would appear to be a byproduct of evolution.

I am sorry but idealism, no matter how good the intension never works. You only see one side of the story. There is a reason why Scripture declares that God’s ways are not our ways. Human morality is actually flawed. God understands that compassion does not mean removal of the problem. healing is often giving the person the power and ability to endure and recover. The pain is still there, even if it is masked.

Richard

43

You should read God, Freedom, and Evil by Alvin Plantinga and The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis if you haven’t already. I would like to give a little push on your points though.

Yes God is all powerful but he can’t make a square circle. In other words, he created the universe to be able to choose between good and evil, meaning how he can interact with the elements in our universe is limited, not because he lacks power, but because we are limited. Furthermore, good and evil can exist simultaneously because evil is not a separate entity, it is a corruption of a good thing. To give an analogy, if you have a faulty computer part, simply removing the part without any sort of replacement does not solve the issue, but simply stops the computer from working. The idea is nonsense remains nonsense even when talking about God. The reason for this is because just because two words have meaning, doesn’t mean that if you combine them into a sentence it does. Things that don’t make logical sense are not describable or even imaginable because if it was possible to do such a thing, logic would be pointless. Conclusion: taking out evil is not possible because God can’t do illogical things when interacting with the universe he created because the universe itself is limited, not God. If you were to create a different system, we would not exist.

P.S. I would also like to point out that specifically in Christianity, God doesn’t just watch us suffer and do nothing about it, he became a part of it as Jesus. He suffered more than imaginable. If what is recorded is true, he experienced the pain of every murder, rape, torture, hurricane, cancer, disaster, manipulation, etc. over all time. He did not spare himself from suffering but did overcome it. He was the example of how if we trust in him, we can do the same through him.

P.P.S. Heaven is pure joy and bliss, we don’t have a choice to do evil because we made the choice here on Earth. We can live in pure joy without suffering because we suffered on Earth. Keep in mind that if there was no evil, no suffering, no pain, no danger, no risk, there would also lack the ability to grow as a human.

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44

Also remember that evil and good are outside of space and time as well. They are not universe specific, which means as long as God does something good, the potential for corruption will always exist so long as he allows freedom. You said that you appreciate your freedom over being a slave, but this is the price of freedom also. You have two choices for a system that the universe operates in, to be free and eventually overcome suffering and live in pure joy through God, or to be a slave to God, experience good but never understand what it means to do so. I guess you could say everything be static and neutral, but like, there would be no point in that.

45

You don’t think we will have freedom of choice in heaven?

Why?

We cured smallpox. Smallpox no longer exists. In developed countries diseases like measles and whooping cough hardly ever happen.

Will there be sport and recreation in heaven?

All I would have to do is kill all the parasites.

Heaven won’t work?

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46

I’m not talking about good and evil. I am talking about pain and suffering which is different. No one thinks the plasmodium parasite is evil even though it causes malaria and is one of the most deadliest childhood diseases on Earth. No one chooses to have malaria. Our actions do not cause us to get malaria. I don’t see why freedom of choice requires children to die of malaria.

Then it shouldn’t have been possible to get rid of smallpox, but we did.

God could cure all infected children of malaria right now. Why doesn’t he?

What does a 3 year old learn when they die from malaria?

47

It is only possible because of “natural evil” which is still evil. We didn’t get rid of small pox as in caused it to not exist.

We didn’t get rid of small pox as in caused it to not exist. We got rid of it as in when it affects us we kill it.

Tough question, however I have already pointed out that he cannot. He can’t make a square circle, he allowed the universe to take it’s own course. Of course he can cure some things, through manipulating certain events, but in the end it’s not like he can just get rid of all evil. Also, just because evil exists, it doesn’t logically follow that God doesn’t.

I didn’t say anything about learning. I said growing, and they probably don’t learn anything. I’ll ask you though, what do YOU think happens when we die. My answer will change based on your response.

48

For me, atheism hasn’t ever given me a response of closure to deal with that kind of suffering except like it is subjective experience, or nothing matters, or something along those lines. That is all I’ve ever heard anyway, I am not sure how you would respond. I would like to know what your solution is as an atheist though. As a theist, God doesn’t prevent suffering because it would be better to have freewill and suffer than to be a mindless robot without love. Love can only be a choice, hence why we have free will and thus, suffer. I would think that most people would rather have freewill and suffer in exchange for love than be a slave without love even if you experience bliss.

49

We did get rid of smallpox. It only exists in some nations’ biorepositories (e.g. the CDC in the US). We could easily destroy those last remaining vials containing smallpox, especially since we have sequenced its genome and could synthesize it if we wanted to. It no longer exists in humans and no longer infects humans.

We die. That’s it.

Pain and suffering just is. It is how the universe works, a universe that appears to be indifferent to our pain and suffering.

We do the best we can with the tools we have. It’s up to us to reduce pain and suffering.

I don’t understand this. Did eradicating smallpox take away free will? Are we slaves in heaven because we can’t suffer? Would you rather go to hell so you can suffer? I just can’t square these concepts.

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50

It can always come back, it didn’t exist for all time, it infected something and became a thing. Just because we can kill it indefinitely doesn’t mean that it can’t come back indefinitely. We aren’t erasing the concept of small pox from existence.

Yeah, but why are you saying God would be evil for allowing this then. If it is only unfair because we say it is, what does that say about how fair it would be if God allowed it? That is what you’re saying right? The universe doesn’t care, only we do. So why would it be wrong for God to allow it, or why do we think that it is bad for some reason, if nothing else tells us it is? Just curious.

No, it didn’t. I already said that we didn’t eradicate the possibility of small pox. It is still a concept and could come back. Of course we could kill it. Furthermore, I was talking about evil as a whole. Just because you get rid of a certain evil, doesn’t mean that you eradicate the potential of evil. No we aren’t slaves in heaven. We made a choice here on Earth. I was saying if it was heaven and that’s it, no Earth to make a choice then yes we would be slaves. I wouldn’t go to hell to suffer. I said love is a choice, and choice means you can get hurt, that’s the reality. You can’t take away suffering and retain a value for love. After we have made our choice though, we live with the consequences of such choice either in heaven or hell. Also where did we get the idea that when we die, that’s it. That doesn’t make sense to me on a philosophical level. If we were originally dead, became alive, and died again, what would stop us from being alive again? Nothing? Furthermore, if you agree something can’t come from nothing, then something also can’t go into nothing. Existence doesn’t stop existing and non-existence doesn’t start existing. Where do you get the idea that we die and nothing happens? just curious.

51

When will you understand that it is not about heaven! Heaven has a different set of parameters and rules. Heaven and Earth are incompatible.

As I undersand it such notions are irrelevant. The form we have and the options within that form will make damage and illness impossible, so…

because the earth would overcrowd within a day or so.

Do you not understand the Cycle of life and death? it is basic to Biology!

Whether you like it or not the world as it is dictates certain limitations or options. Remove one thing and it impinges on another. The bacteria that kill, also decompose carrion. You cannot remove the parts you do not approve of, and neither can God. Not because He is unable, but because of the consequences of doing it. To keep the status quo you need the world as it is, warts and all.

Richard

52

The only way smallpox can come back is if we release it from where we have it stored.

Do you think it would be wrong for a doctor to withhold life saving medical treatments, especially if the cost in time and money was zero? If a doctor withheld life saving medical treatments because the doctor thought the person needed to grow as a human, even if this meant the patient would die, I would think they are not a loving person.

It makes no sense that an all powerful deity could not come up with a process where indiscriminate pain and suffering needs to be present.

Why?

We, as persons, are our brain function. When we die that brain deteriorates and stops functioning, and there is no coming back from that. It is irreversible.

53

So would this be fairly summarized, then as Liebniz’s “best of all possible worlds”?

54

You are asking me what parameters would need to be changed, so it is entirely relevant to point to heaven.

An all powerful deity could not fix this?

We are talking about how everything would need to be changed. You are stuck in the box of assuming things can’t be different. We are talking about removing the limitations.

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55

sorry but I am not familiar with Liebniz, but I guess if you believe in God then you would expect the best from Him.

Which is sort of what i am trying to explain. That there is no better option.

see above

If you change the parameters you change the whole thing.

IOW we have what we have. It may not suit. There are things we would like to change. There are things that upset us. But

If God thinks there is no other way , who am I to argue?

Richard

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56

Yeah it would be wrong, my only point is that if you completely eradicate evil then you leave no room for growth.

I already told you he limited his own power, he cannot break the laws of logic. One cannot come up with a process where you can eradicate evil and retain a value for good. It is not logically possible because they require one another in order to have a value. For example, something is only preferable, wanted, or comparable if there is another choice. You cannot appreciate freedom fully if that is all you know. That is why spoiled people have such a hard time wrapping their minds around not getting their way, it’s all they know. They can’t appreciate being spoiled in comparison to someone who suffers constantly.

Why is love a choice? I mean if you force someone to love you then it is not loving? No one wants to be forced to do anything. Would you like it if God FORCED his love on you? If someone said you must love me and I am forcing you to do so?

Yeah if you are a materialist. Most of our experience isn’t seeable, touchable, smellable, feelable(physically), or can be tasted. Consciousness isn’t any of those, love, hate, kindness, imperfection, joy, peace, patience, suffering, they are all experiences that we can understand that are not physical. What happens to those? What happens to our sense of self when we die, I don’t think there is any evidence that it is physical. Sure the process that we can observe it from is physical, but no matter what you can’t see, touch, taste, smell, feel (physically), hear, your sense of I. So I wonder how it is that we got that sense, from a physical body, to a metaphysical experience. Furthermore, If we know we are physical, we must know what it means to be non-physical. Plato’s allegory again illustrates this. A man can know he exists (the man in the cave seeing a shadow of reality), and yet not understand that his reality is any sort of way until he sees what true reality is (exiting the cave). We could not understand our own physicality and experiences unless we have some idea of what it means to be non-physical. Natural processes do not explain the origin of the process itself.

57

There are a lot of assumptions in that sentence. First, you are assuming God exists. Second, you assume you know what God is thinking. Third, you are assuming God is right.

However, that is where faith comes in. This is what you believe. Just realize that others who don’t share your beliefs won’t come to these same conclusions.

58

I am not seeing any logic here. It amounts to “because I say so”. If good has value then it has value all on its own.

Why does choosing love require hurt?

How are they not physical? Measurement of brain activity sure seems to indicate that it is. I don’t know of anyone who experiences those things and has zero brain function. All of the evidence I have seen indicates that when my brain stops functioning that’s it.

Outside the cave is still the physical. There is no evidence for the non-physical.

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59

That is a given.

Why would I argue his inclusion if He doesn’t exist?

No, it is just that it is as it is .By the definition of God, He would be able to do anything and this is what He has done

As above. That comes under the prerequisite for being God

God is not a human construct. God is.

This is not about faith it is about reality.

And this is one of my arguments with Bible bashers. Scripture does not always seem to reflect reality. The idea that only Christians can do good being the prime example.

That is also a given. However, I will argue what I see. You take it or leave it. But if you are going to leave it you need to come up with an alternative. if your alternative is ToE without God then it doesn’t work (IMHO)

Richard.

60

There is no evidence for the non-physical? So math, philosophy, and logic don’t exist. Consciousness and the feelings i mentioned arent physical? Yeah we express their value in physical ways through a physical body, but they themselves cant be touched. Of course you can’t obersve someone whose braindead they have no physical way to express anything, that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. our consciousness isn’t physical because if it is the result of neurons in our brain then our solar plexus should be conscious. It has more neural activity than the brain. Even if it was physical, we exist. Something created us. What is stopping us from existing again when we die? choosing love doesnt require hurt, it requires the possibility of hurt or rejection.