Creation, evolution order


(Scott koshland) #1

From a scientific point of view it seems that once the universe is created it is fairly possible to define the evolution of matter creating the universe using the laws of physics that we know. And once life is created it seems possible to explain the evolvement of the life forms over time using evolutionary concepts.

The problem with science is that they really can’t explain how creation of the universe And the creation of life began. Once the universe and life are created then the laws of physics and evolution can explain the outcome. I think that there is a law that explains the formation of the universe and the creation of life. I think that this is Gods law that not only defines His creation of the universe and life but continues to guide the universe and all life within it. This law links both the creation of the universe and the creation of life and the world around us.

In thermodynamics the order for a system is thought to decrease with time but as has been discussed by others did the universe start with great order and devolve? That it quite counterintuitive to the existence of stable galaxies and even the evolvement of life that something else is happening. The order of the universe is not decreasing. If order is defined in space/time then the time of existence of the entity becomes relevant. The ordered energy and the time of existence define existence. This can be thought as the probability of existence of a given entity over time. I think that this is Gods law of the universe as the universe forms stable entities over time. This probability of existence can be thought of total order of an entity or defined system. This total order increases over time. I believe that This total order explains the creation of the universe and I think that this is Gods Devine law and shows his continual living presence in our world. In understanding this we can better understand His purpose for all of us.


(GJDS) #2

If I understand this from physics, the entropy of the Universes is increasing - this is why the start of the Universe is described (or a similar term) with very low entropy. If we consider localities within the Universe (such as earth), we may argue that order is increasing, and this seems especially for living things.

If we define evolution as unfolding in time (or an arrow of time) we may provide a rational account for the entire Universe and also study local events - it gets pretty heady after this and a good theoretician/mathematician may add to these remarks. Imo it is dangerous from a reasonable point of view, to insert some theory that does not arise from the maths involved in the overall scenario (e.g. inserting neo-Darwinian thinking).

As an explanation of creation, I think the notion of an “absolute” beginning (t=0) and the constants of the Universe (and associated arguments) present the most compelling explanation. The creation of life and the context for this also is compelling, but this is more of a mystery to science at this point in time. Some PoS argue that teleology is a problem that biology must come to grips with.


(Scott koshland) #3

Dear GJDS.

Thank you for your reply. I very much appreciate your comments.

Clearly these events of creation and life have happened and they must have an explanation. I think that the atheist sees a non purposeful life in part because of the teachings of the randomness and increase of entropy over time. As then to them life is just accidental and random event without Gods higher purpose. We know that God has a higher purpose. Entropy laws do not account for the time of existence of an ordered state. The rate of change of universal matter has slowed. In essence over time matter is becoming more stable. The math is derived empirically from the emergent properties of complex systems. The math looks like this. The probability of existence = Energy(formation) x T (time of existence). X = Ex *Tx

Think of this as If there exist a roulette table that has Bt holes (numbers) and each hole has varying length for a ball to fall in Bg and each hole can hold the ball for a time T that depends on the depth of the hole. The probability of existence then is the length of the hole x the depth of the hole divided by the total length of the holes (numbers).

If you look at life I am sure you will agree that it requires an ordered state of matter that exists over time. Consider just the DNA. Dna is the fundamental basis and origin of life and an ordered state. DNA has evolved and adapted to remain (exist in an ordered state) over time to continue (time of existence) regardless of the form that life takes ( plant/animal) life adheres to this same law of creation that matter does. Life fundamentally seeks to exist. God accomplishes this by altering the DNA (energy of existence) and form of the entity to continue existence (time of existence). This is not any different from the changes we see in matter over time.

The creation of the universe, the creation of life and the changes we continue to see in the world around us are not accidental events but fundamental properties of all matter. I think that this is Gods work in the creation of the world and life. There is a clear higher purpose in His creation of the universe and life.


(GJDS) #4

Yes this is in fact one example where order increases - this system is understood by considering a larger system so that for an increase in order (life on earth) another part of the system counters with an increase in entropy (e.g. energy from the sun and activities in the sun).


(Larry Bunce) #5

The objection to evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics fails to consider that it applies only to a closed system. The earth gets energy from the sun, so life can become more ordered, even as the solar system as a whole is cooling down.


(Scott koshland) #6

Larry and GJDS,

I totally agree with you that the overall entropy increases in a closed system even though some components of the system the entropy can decrease. However, this doesn’t explain evolution. This just says that evolution obeys these


(GJDS) #7

I am not sure that anything can explain evolution - one view is derived from the constants of the Universe, and deduction from these, that the Universe is somehow fine tuned for an ultimate goal, which is life. However that is a generalisation and does not in itself provide an explanation for Neo-Darwinism. It does show however, that we are within a time-space framework and things unfold within this time-space continuum.


(Scott koshland) #8

Obeys these laws. I am suggesting that matter is tending to a more stable state of existence with time even as entropy increases. In essence more stable matter is selected over time. So whether it is matter or life it is selected and shaped by the environment toward a more stable form. Essentially the universe is evolving not to a disordered state but a more stable form. Time of existence matters. The world Is not random and it is not just increasing entropy or disorder. Just considering entropy without time misses the point of our existence.

On a molecular basis it is better to consider the Gibbs free energy than S (entropy) for the flow of energy. The energy per mass is G/m which is essentially the stored energy in a given molecule or entity. This relates to the Ordered energy of the entity. This energy is optimized toward stability in its environment. So over time stable matter is selected for in a given environment. This becomes G*T/ m. This is increasing over time for all matter. So whether life or matter this equation explains the changes we see over time.


(GJDS) #9

These equations are standard:

Gibbs Free Energy (G) - The energy associated with a chemical reaction that can be used to do work. The free energy of a system is the sum of its enthalpy (H) plus the product of the temperature (Kelvin) and the entropy (S) of the system:

G=H - TS

Free energy of reaction (G)

•The change in the enthalpy (H) of the system minus the product of the temperature (Kelvin) and the change in the entropy (S) of the system:

    DG= DH - TDS

System (including chemical reactions) have a propensity towards more stable states.

•The change in free energy that occurs when a compound is formed from its elements in their most thermodynamically stable states at standard-state conditions. In other words, it is the difference between the free energy of a substance and the free energies of its elements in their most thermodynamically stable states at standard-state conditions.

◦The standard-state free energy of reaction can be calculated from the standard-state free energies of formation as well. It is the sum of the free energies of formation of the products minus the sum of the free energies of formation of the reactants

Spontaneous reactions result in -DG (or are exothermic) so that energy is given as they achieve a more stable state. As you can see, an increase in entropy and temperature would favour reactions.


(George Brooks) #10

@Skoshland

As long as you accept that there is no final stable form, then everything is fine.

Think about Fish developing more tetrapod features … more stable? Well, I suppose. Then those 4 appendages allows the creature to explore dry land … and suddenly there is a surge of new traits … seeking stability on the terrestrial environment.

Eventually we arrive at mammals… but these mammals, as environmental changes continue to occur, find themselves driven to (or drawn to) the waters… and suddenly the new stability is to streamline those four appendages back to fins or flippers.

And while that is going on, some reptiles forced into a confining terrestrial niche, seek a brand new stability … and they lose the very 4 appendages that helped fish so much - - voila, snakes.

Seeking stability sounds compelling … but only in a temporary sense … of seeking the best temporary fit in a constantly changing environment!


(Larry Bunce) #11

The development of life involves chemical reactions that ultimately get energy from the sun, or possibly heat from the interior of the earth. Heat from the interior of the earth arose from the collision of matter that condensed to form the solar system. plus the heat obtained from the tremendous pressure created by gravity.

In the solar system, only the sun collected enough matter to form a star. The matter that formed the solar system got its energy from an exploding earlier generation star, and so on back to the Big Bang.

Life is free to develop in any direction as long as it receives energy from some outside source. Any temporary decrease in entropy that may appear in life is matched by an increase in entropy elsewhere.


(Scott koshland) #12

I don’t know what the extrapolation of the final form will take.

I think that the rate of change of energy is slowing with time and the world is becoming more stable. From my point of view of total order as G*T/m I think that with this in mind life is not defined by the overall form. The DNA system is the likely original form of life that is conserved through time in all the life forms. I see life as even though many forms exist adapted to a given environment it is the DNA that is conserved over time. The G/m reduces to the ordered energy of the organism and the strategy that the life form adapts to survive while the T represents the continual stability of a life from inception over all time. This makes life a continual existing entity over all time from inception regardless of all the adapted forms. Life changes and adapts to changes in the environment and changes the form sometimes increasing complexity and form and sometimes reducing complexity and form that occur in extinctions. It is the DNA that is the conserved entity that exists through time.


(Scott koshland) #13

I don’t think we should get caught up on just entropy explaining the form of the universe and the evolution of life. Entropy certainly explains the flow of energy but not so well the form that matter assumes. You must not assume just because entropy increases that all matter is tending toward a state of maximum entropy of disorder and randomness. This is clearly not the case. The world is not tending to randomness and chaos as an atheist may think. Even though entropy is increasing the rate of change in entropy is slowing not increasing over time. Consider that it is not the G but the E of activation of an entity that determines the molecular stability. So the form rather than the total energy of the entity determines the stability and existence of that form in time. Entropy really just allows the formation of these stable forms. Just because entropy does increase over time doesn’t mean that the system as a whole is tending to a chaotic or random state. There is purpose in the universe.