Christs death or not really?

Faith & Science Conversation
63

He had angelic tailors.

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64

Weak argument if you take into consideration that even the Pagans got persecuted later on

65

There is a difference between the persecution of a belief system that is just getting started (in its infancy so to speak) vs a believe system that is already well established, IMHO.

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66

Sorry, Nick, can you expand on this? Are you talking about the crusades? It isn’t clear from your post whether you mean the Romans persecuted pagans or Christians did?

67

After Christianity was established as the Empires official religion(Under Theodosius i think?) Christians raided ,raised and persecuted pagans. Many pagan sites were turned to temples which still stand today. Wr have many here in Greece

68

Historians show that when this occurred, religious figures became part of palace politics, and often wealthy people who felt they could not progress to positions of power instead chose religious positions to grow in their power. Although such people sounded Christian, they were not, and I have come across (hard to find) accounts where these would try to destroy any who may prevent their rise to power. This area of such history is murky, but reflects the general character of palace politics of the time.

So yes, a lot of strife and destruction occurred presumably in the name of Christianity, but many of the aggressors sought power and not faith.

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69

Any historians or books that back uo your claim?

I assume you are a historian yourself? Because hard to find means that they are exclusive to historians and are not on the internet no?

70

Hi Nick.

This does not nullify the fact that Christianity spread despite persecution, and in fact, in part, because of martyrdom, even. And it started in a tiny speck of the world. Whatever may have been done in the name of Christianity later (especially once the Church became too involved with politics and power-seeking) doesn’t change that. It simply doesn’t.

And–it was Constantine.

EDIT: Oopsie, misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, Theodosius I was the emperor who established Nicene Christianity as the official religion.

-Joshua W.

EDIT #2: Also,

As a librarian by profession, I can assure you that a great many valuable resources cannot be accessed via Google. Information found in databases is generally guarded by subscription/pay wall.

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71

Thats why i asked @GJDS if he was a historian. Even the Vatican wont allow certain books scrolls etc etc to be accessed by the general public. Only if you are a historian. So your comment backs up mine😉

What i was trying to state is just because a religion is persecuted doesnt mean its true. I mean a lot of people have died fro various beliefs. Aslo we dont know if it slread so wuickly becaise of other reasons. Fkr example the people of the empire were sinply tired of giving account to their pagan priests and so the wealthy minority decided to back up this new religion to gain power etc etc as you said above

72

Also just a thing i wamted to back up i recall Holy Wars beign waged in the Old Testament against unbelievers. So the Christians could easily justify their actions back then

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One doesn’t need to be a historian to access hard to find historical resources they simply need to be well read, know where to look, or both.

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74

Sorry Liam but you are wrong. As Joshua above said specific documents and documents that are “hard to find” are really protected and cannot be accessed by the general public unless you are a student or a historian or soemthing at least close to the academic profession of historian.

Unless you have stumbled upon something you tought be important on the internet you cant possibly find sources like that. Even for genuine basic sources it takes a lot of searching.

Now if we are talking about libraries well if some library has something specific and they let you take a look thats on them. Here if you are looking for a historical document or something like that in the library you need a academic approval

75

If a person can read an ancient language then they can access the historical documents through publications. In the case of Ancient Greek and Latin, one can buy books and courses on amazon. Heck, I used a free Duolingo account to teach myself basic Latin last year.

Even if a person can’t read these languages, most documents are available through English publications. Finding out what they are called is not that hard if a person pays attention to the footnotes/endnotes/bibliographies of related books. It’s a simple matter of following the bread crumbs.

Again one only needs to know where to look.

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I am a scientist and not a historian, and hard to find means I had to look to many sources, mainly in the University library (perhaps some may be found through the internet). My point was to show that there are many reasons for conflicts and wars, and many attempts to justify such. The Christian faith teaches us to avoid hatred that leads to conflicts, but human nature seeks wealth, power and self aggrandizement instead, and thus is contrary to the Faith.

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77

If you are arguing for finding sources by am author or by a historian who posted them or retwlls them then yes you can do that. But going into somehwere trying to get the official document is a no no.

If i fir example go and try to get the OFFICIAL document of the Edict of Milan they wont let me. Not even a copy of it

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That depends . As i said before the Christians of the empire coukd easily justify their actions by quoting various OT verses. As history shows they did just that no?

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Depends on what? I get a little tired of references to Israel and the OT, as the OT shows they failed to adhere to the covenant with God. We can see parallels with these so-called christians who would seek to justify their evil deeds.

We are define by our actions and not some weird justification/excuses we may make. This applies to everyone, including emperors and other powerful people.

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80

Sure I can’t go and read the physical original copy (assuming it still exists). But why would I need to? If so inclined I could probably find a book containing the text in the original language, with translations, notes, etc. and/or high definition images of the original document.

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81

(I love that the Latin anagram answers Pilate’s question):
 

Quid est veritas? “What is truth?”
Est vir qui adest: “It is the man who is here.”

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82

A lot of Christians take the OT verses to be from God you know. And tgere are some uneasy ones there that the last christjans coukd use to justify their actions