It’s not Calvinism I am interested in. It’s the model of inspiration and the hermeneutical approach leading to it that interests me because that is the only way to resolve this issue! Otherwise, it’s people just cherry picking one side when both are “clearly taught” in scripture per common Christian approaches to the Bible. Getting involved in that is too arbitrary for my tastes. When the same hermeneutical legitimately leads to both views it’s clear the hermeneutic is the problem. I’m sure we all have access to systematic theology textbooks, all of which should be thoroughly hashing out this issue and raising the relevant scriptures.
If that’s the case, it may be better to aim your critiques at whatever model it is you believe is the problem, rather than at “Calvinists” specifically. Keep in mind that there are participants here from many different theological points of view, and it might be healthier for discussions to focus on critiquing ideas and points of view rather than insulting entire groups of people.
For me when I didn’t understand the gospel and asked God to have the gospel, it was an Isaiah 6 sense of woe is me, and it wasn’t for my past sins but it was for the sense that I knew I would continue to sin.
So yes apart from Christ, I deserve to go to hell.
And for you, apart from Christ do you disappear or are you a universalist?
I didn’t bring up Calvinism. Dale posted a link to an OSAS type list and dredged up a quote from a past discussion and Liam followed suit in commenting on the issue. My only interest in this thread was Christians and doubt, an issue of paramount importance to me as I deal with it every day in life.
But if someone has convinced themselves God willfully chooses some people for eternal bliss and other people he predestines to eternal conscious torment, arbitrary of anything they do or don’t, I’m not sure what there is to talk about. I’m not of the “be grateful I was chosen for heaven while everyone else burns mentality.” That theology means God is no longer good or worthy of worship by any stretch of the imagination. Predestining people to eternal torment is the most vile and evil thing anyone could ever possibly do. There is nothing worse. God would be a being of which no lesser could be thought. As I said, my critiques of Calvinism are moral and based on meta-arguments. Its clear that “standard hermeneutics” lead to both Calvinism and Arminianism (we can find both CLEARLY articulated in scripture). Thus the problem is the approach to scripture. With that being said, Calvinism entails much more than predestination but when I criticize Calvinistic theology its only the belief in predestination that is on my mind. God desires all to be saved. If that were really true and he is just choosing who to save, its obvious he would choose everyone eventually. Not sure why Calvinists don’t just become universalists. It is a logical inference bases on what scripture says and how they approach it. Some have and when you do this problem goes away.
We still need to try to live in a Christlike fashion despite our individual failures. If for no other reason than its God’s will and the right thing to do. I am a Christian. That means I follow Christ and that entails trying to emulate His life. The incarnation is a tangible model for us to follow.
Salvation is achievable only through God’s grace because I fall short but I still feel the need to have as many Holy moments as possible while here. There is also selfishness involved. True happiness and joy comes from doing the will of God and helping others.
I get it, many Christians are judgmental with a holier than thou attitude and they resemble the Pharisees as portrayed in the gospels at times. But painting all Christians with such a broad brush is just grasping at any reason to reject God’s Son.
Whats the reason to keep your commandments if you can ask for forgivennes any time you want and get a free way ticket? What is the point of believing in these commandments when you arent able to even keep 50% of what is required of you.Do you love your neighbor as yourself? Do you do good deeds?Are you compasionate for one another?
No Christian does these.None.Zero.Nich.
You cant feed the homelless one day and then go beat them up the next and say “opps i fell short ,well better ask sorry”.Its stupid
I dont subscribe to that vile theology,Commandments are there to be kept.If you cant dont call yourself a Christian.Salvation is not a matter of forgiveness only.Thats is uterlly false to my worldview.Do as many bad thing as you want and even if you ask forgviness you wont end up in heaven.Thats my view.
Certain sins of course cant be forgiven.You cant do vile acts especially acts against your fellow humans and still be forgiven.
Thats my theology.Thats the only way i can make peace with Christianity and what it teaches.
Theres no other way.
The question is .Can you guys redeem yourselves in the eyes of your lost brethren? Can you guys be redeemed for all the trouble you have caused? Violence,corruption etc etc.Can the church cleance itself from these? Or does Christ need to come back again to do it for yourself?
If the Revelation is not literal as many here believe and its all metaphor and such ,then im sorry theres no hope.Your church will remain like that.The whore of Babylon.And im afraid there wont be any salvation for the [Redacted](ie christians) it has produced
Because its the right and moral thing to do. If you seek after God you seek after his will. You might not actually be saved and in a relationship with God if you are just using “grace” as a crutch to sin. That sounds like someone backsliding or a cultural Christian. Or someone who doesn’t understand what it means to be in a genuine relationship with God which is life changing. A Christian by definition seeks to follow Christ and He actually intensified the law and had very high expectations and standards for his followers. As identifying Christians we are choosing to emulate Christ despite all our failures.
No Christian does theses 100% of the time to perfection but Christians do them all the time. You seem to think that it is all good or no good. There is a whole world in between. Some good is certainly better than no good. You also seem to only focus on the negatives in regards to Christians and not the positives. You seem to be in a very skeptical echo-chamber and look at Christianity with uncharitable blinders on.
With genuine repentance they can through God’s grace. I don’t understand how some Christians can forgive a man who murdered their kids or hope for his repentance. I am not that mature in Christ but some can. That is the whole point of God’s grace. You are never too far gone to be saved. But being saved doesn’t mean using grace as a license to sin. I personally believe you are not saved yet if this is your attitude.
Sounds to me like you want a works based salvation where you accomplish a bunch of good deeds and get recognized for them. That isn’t how the real world works and Christians, despite all their faults and and the evils done in Jesus’s name, engage in amazing acts of charity as well.
It seems to me you are only critiquing a narrow view of Christianity based solely on Paul. I strongly recommend you read the book of James and see how he spins “belief only.” James is not kind to those who do not live out their faith. If faith does not produce works or change its dead.
So how many failures are acceptable Vinnie.2 3? 100 200? A thousan a million? How many times can you fail on your journey to slavation until God says enough is enough? Infinite times?If yes whats the difference with what i said above? I can do bad things beign a Christian and say “ohhh well i just keep failing”.Same thing
Bad acts outweights good ones many times.Keep that in mind for the rest of your life. As i have.
Have you ever change your opinion on people who did “good deeds” but then did a thing so messed up they became a demon in your eyes? I have.And i hope you encounter that to.To see that what i said above its true.
Is it genuine?Or they do it just to get an ok from God and go to heaven? Also science doesnt tells us such thing exist.We are vengfull as humans.We have evlolved like this. So itrust the later on this matter.
Explain why doesnt that doesnt work though> What better thing to treat everyone good and generally do good deeds?
Im not criutining Christianity particularry now am i? My critique is on its follower primarly . My criqitue comes generally from what ive read and from life experiences ,for everything that i might criqique
When Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive his brother what was His response? As a Christian, AKA follower of Christ, I side with Jesus on this issue over the man-made logic of Nick, an ex-Christian on an Internet forum. Do you really think you know more about forgiveness than Jesus? Also, if you seriously read the Old aTestament it’s just God’s chosen people failing over and over again yet He remains faithful to them. Love, true love, keeps no records of wrongs. Check out 1 Corinthians 13.
It is not about keeping score.
That is where trusting God comes in. If everyone isn’t eventually saved (universalism) then God knows who genuinely reprints and who doesn’t. We can fool each other but not our Father in heaven.
There is nothing wrong with that. We are supposed to do precisely that: we fall short and need God’s grace but make no mistake, a true Christian strives to enter. They take James and personal sin and repentance very seriously. They also believe they are called to good work and to emulate Christ.
You seem to forget that every time the Isralites “failed” and rejected God had consequences right? Real life consequnces.What reprucations do you have? Oh yeah.Zero.
Go ahead then fail as many times as you want and then go repent.Dont blame me when you end up in “flames” in the end. God cannot be made in a free way to haven ticket machine you guys trying to make him. Failing and doing bad deeds is the same thing/You can fail a certain amount of times.
Universalism and generally that theology you are describing are a scpaegoat for these @@ which are now call themselves Christians to justify their bad deeds to whom? God? Stupid
Anyway
Take an atheist doing good deeds 90% of the time and take a christian who does it only 50% .The christian will end up in hell or away from God or whatever you call it.
It’s fine to discuss Calvinism (and related hermeneutical models), including offering critiques as well. My point is more that those from a Reformed theological background are not a monolith – individuals can have different worldviews and understandings of how their theology impacts their lives and other views, so seeking understanding is key. I’ve certainly made the mistake of viewing YECs as a monolith sometimes even though I know there is a spectrum of beliefs and reasons for those beliefs among them.
It’s interesting to decide how broad or how narrow this YEC spectrum may be. Speaking of Calvinists, I looked up John Piper to remind myself of his creation/evolution thoughts, and I landed on an AIG page dedicated to winnowing through big names to sort out the ‘good’ from the ‘bad’. I was surprised to see that Piper didn’t even make their ‘fully approved’ list because he had apparently committed the sin of allowing that there could be some greater age of the earth embedded in the opening creation verses before the days started. Never mind that he toed the line, and checked every box otherwise (literal and specially created Adam and Eve, etc.) Granted, the age of the universe is no small detail, and puts the ‘Y’ in YEC after all. But still, it struck me afresh how sensitive and narrowly focused people can be regarding whom they will acknowledge as part of their tribe. The page I viewed may have been around ten years old, and so may be dated - so I don’t know how Piper may think of these things today.
Those percentages seem too high to me but neither one is good enough to achieve salvation. Imagine climbing and conquering a mountain as achieving salvation. If you get 50% to the top or 90%, you didn’t make it. Or better yet imagine being stranded in the ocean: if you swim 50% of the way to the shore or only 90% of the way before giving in, you drown in both cases: maybe some people are good enough to earn salvation. I don’t speak in absolutes but I know I’m not and it doesn’t look like most people I know are either.
Also, everyone is born in a different circumstance, has different genetics, upbringings and psychological traits. God will judge us based on what we do with what we have. Sometimes good deeds don’t require as much courage or self sacrifice. Sometimes they require a lot. Sometimes they are just people going with the flow. Sometimes they swim against the current. In the end God is the sole judge of salvation and no one else. Jesus himself said “many will say didn’t we prophecy in your name and cast out demons but Jesus will tell them ‘I never knew you.’”
Sorry Nick, but your logic and reasoning is not good. “There are so many hypocrites in the church” is amateurish for someone who spends so much time frequenting high end discussions on Internet forums. You appear angry and bitter and I hope you allow the peace and love of Christ to find you and open up your heart. Remember, all that glitters is not gold.
My sin and guilt bothers me on a daily basis. Romans 7:14-20 is very powerful to me:
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
And some would say the society I am living in is changing for the worse in a lot of ways. That would be a consequence but I’m not fully of the “when I was young it was better crowd.” That view is usually espoused by boomers who I usually tell when they were young, women couldn’t own a credit card and black people had to use different water fountains. We’ve made progress in a lot of areas and regressed in some others. But sin doesn’t always bring immediate judgment. That is clear from scripture as well.
In the end it seems you are angry that God bestows his grace on sinners. As for me and my household, we are grateful. I often get the idea God should be doing some things different so I can relate but in the end God is God and I am not. I only see poorly as in a mirror dimly lit.
Do you think you are one of these good people who deserve to go to heaven?
Am i at fault though? Am i really wrong for saying that?
Thats true
I dont know. Others can answer that for me maybe but not i . However i dont think 99% of you will go
In what way we have made progress on the human character?
Vanity,hypocricy ,lying and all these malevolent things are the dominant characteristic traits in our society,Children are growing in an enviroment that parents are lying cheating abusing etc etc one another. And this goes for christian households as well.Everything is messed up
If i were you i would feel sick by having those christians believing the same things as me.I wouldnt even go to church if i had these in mine;
Again 99% are that way.Only 1% remains pure.If you are in that 1% good,If you are on the bastards 99% then im sorry,youre for a trip to hell
My advice leave the church pursue God alone.As long as you are in the church you will get judged(by church i mean the whole body of Christians not a specific denomination)
Nick, I think you have a really good heart. I wish you could have known my own, Christlike parents. I think that they helped me realize that God must be much more just, kind and caring than even our earthly parents. I honestly think that He won’t give up on us. I plan on seeing you there (maybe way before me, and closer to God than me).