You would think a group of people that holds themselves morally “superior” or at least they believe in morals and generally believe they are chosen ,they would try to be as close as possible to imitate what Jesus taught them to and what they should to one another and generally to all of creation. But they don’t. Anyway as you said people are funny. You can find good and bad that’s true. The problem is when the majority are the bad ones. That’s where the problem is . And I think that for the Christian body. I will point out that I don’t think someone will change my view on that. Have seen a lot of disgusting behaviours there. But anyway. Just my two cents. Sharing my opinion nothing more.
I just wish Christians criticized each other on that basis more rather than defending these behaviours because they are “brothers in Christ”.
Not even angry anymore just disappointed at what Christianity has become. It’s a pitty.
Christians certainly are wrong if they do. We of all people should know that everyone is morally broken, and it is only God’s grace through Jesus that rescues us. We are given severe warnings in the NT and to test ourselves against the ‘laws of love.’ Jesus talked about the sheep and the goats mixed together and the weeds among the wheat, the wide gate and the narrow.
Hm, I don’t think that the Christians I have met think of themselves as superior. Many of them kind of recognize that they are the ones that society looks down on–the folks struggling with drugs, poverty, and abuse. It’s those that don’t get relief from crowd condemnation that really realize that people don’t provide our affirmation–it’s God.
there are, of course, people that fit into the self righteous category. Sometimes those are the ones that are the most insecure. Jesus was hardest on those, wasn’t he? But it seems we all have a bit of the Pharisee and the abused, alike.
Hope you are keeping cool in your hot weather. We are running up to the 90s Fahrenheit soon–but mostly not bad in the woods.
Remindse me of the two wolves story. We both have two wolves inside of us. The one is peace,generosity,clarity etc etc. The other is jealousy,fornication,liying,etc etc. Which one wins? The one you feed more.
As I’m trying to frame our discussion, and rereading your comment that responded to what me and Dale see as a perspicuous doctrine in the NT about knowing God, I’m still not sure about where you would draw the proverbial line. Granted it’s a fuzzy line that as a trinitarian, I believe we can draw in various incongruous colors, which brings glory to our God. Personally I think that God is pleased there are Baptists and Presbyterians. Some disagreements will probably persist until he returns.
Thanks. I am sorry… I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. I will think and email you in a PM tomorrow I think.
Sorry on the individuality question… I found your question and thread interesting, but did not make it beyond a brief overview, so I don’t understand the allusion. I will try to PM you. Thanks.
I married a Baptist and attend a Baptist (GARB) church. I am still learning about the differences. I was raised nondenominational in a majority Muslim country…you were either Christian or Muslim. We had many good Muslim friends and coworkers and neighbors, for sure. Thanks
Which one do you think your brother’s and sisters feed more?
Which one do you think you feed more?
Which one society feeds more?
And lastly which one God uses the most?
Certainly for new and immature Christians, but shouldn’t Christians grow up and learn to trust their Father, learn about his faithfulness to others and trust him for themselves?
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Hebrews 5:12
This is a long thread and I didn’t read it all yet but I wanted to toss my $0.02 in unfiltered. Babies are dumped in the trash, children starve, people are tortured, abused and so on. Natural disasters occur, millions of people die each year due to the sheer lunacy of simply not having access to clean water. Pain and suffering is unfathomable at times. Cancer and a thousand other things seems cruel and horrendous. So much bad stuff happens its not difficult for doubts about God’s faithfulness to spring up. I wonder the exact opposite. How could anyone seeking God’s heart see such grotesque evil, things so contrary to the putative will and character of God and not have some doubts from time to time? How deep must that head be buried in the sand? For many of us there is no proof of God or Christianity. You seem to have found some for yourself (e.g. Maggy’s testimony) but for us that means intellectual doubts will ALWAYS be a reality. But our relationship with God should still be able to grow and while sometimes doubting, we turn to Him in the face of evil and ask as Jesus did, "My God my God why have you forsaken us? Biblically, a Psalm of lamentation is not sinful.
I always felt solidarity with Abraham. “Shall not the Lord of the earth do what is right?” Compare that to a dolty Noah building a boat with no resistance and immediately sacrificing animals after the flood amidst the bloating bodies littering a desolate landscape. Two wildly different characters.
We also had this discussion on the forum before about Gethsemane but I personally take comfort in Jesus’ fear and concern in the garden. Falling on the floor in distress multiple times, asking that the cup be taken from him. Not because of some blood magic because he would literally and nonsensically take on the sins of the world and the Father would literally not be able to look on him, but because he was mortal and afraid of what was to come next. But He was willing and followed the will of His Father. If He can have momentary doubts or reservations then I feel in good company.
The irony of this topic is that Jesus probably never said what is attributed to Him in John 10:28 and part of the book’s purpose is probably meant to comfort a doubting or suffering /persecuted community. Its not meant to blame them for their doubt. The Jews were largely rejecting Jesus and Christians were marginalized and probably oppressed in some circles. These statements are meant to give hope and assurance to the community, not condemn them for their doubts. Do people with zero doubts need hope and assurance? I would tend to think not.
Looks like a very nice OSAS proof-text hunting list. How about listing the verses supporting the opposite position now? All those warnings in scripture that have to lose their sting and be watered down as just God going through the motions. You don’t have to look both ways before crossing a street if traffic didn’t exist.
And what to do with all the high language election stuff in the Bible is part of the problem for some of us. Reassuring in one sense but alarming in another.
good thoughts. how do you answer the question why does God allow suffering and evil in the world? For me personally, the problem of evil is the most important source of doubt. Thanks
When I taught through Hebrews a few years back I never felt the need to water down the warnings or rob them of their sting. The purpose of a warning is to warn others away from a certain course. The “danger unstable cliff edge” sign is intended to stop people going near the cliff, heeding the warning shows it is effectual. The warnings in Hebrews are shown to be effectual, when Christians, empowered by the Spirit, heed the warnings. That is true whether one is Calvinist or Arminian, or none of the above.
The ultimate proof of whether one’s faith is genuine, after all, is not whether we prayed a pray once, walked an isle, or can repeat the Institutes verbatim, but if we are trusting in Christ as we take our final breath. And that is true whether one is a Calvinist or Arminian, or none of the above too:
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. (Hebrews 3:14 NIV2011)
So you believe what you like, but don’t believe for one second that people falling away from the faith doesn’t keep Calvinists up at night. We got questions for the man upstairs too, just different questions. Heck, maybe not that different. Some of us even have emotions… hard as that is to believe.