Christianity and Interpretations

Faith & Science Conversation
21

I disagree. I don’t think Jesus was connected to God with full status until after he ascended.

God knows everything. Jesus did not know the hour.
God can’t be tempted. Jesus was tempted.

God is spirit. Jesus is flesh.

God had no beginning. Jesus beginning was at his birth.

It also says once all of Gods enemies are destroyed he will hand the kingdom over to God and be subject to him.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

So while in earth I think Jesus was 100% man. He is the scepter God chose and sent to destroy his enemies , becoming a sacrifice, and then overturn death. Once it’s all completed, he is subject once more to God. The same for the bush. I don’t think the bush on fire was God, but Gods power in the bush. Jesus was Gods power on earth.

Once he resurrected and ascended Jesus was once more in perfect harmony with his father. Jesus was the word and the word became flesh. The word is alluded to in the beginning when God spoke. His power.

So I don’t think it’s a simple clear cut answer. It does not matter what some council of men decided 2,000 years ago. Thst would be like if a council set up now and decided literal creationism was the absolute truth. Means nothing to me. Same as men deciding what books are in the Bible. Means nothing to me. There is no god ordained list. That was a man’s choice. Paul said to be bereans and test everything and eagerly search the scriptures.

The issue I see nowadays is that people want to get a complex thing that took 4,000 years to develop and sum it up in simple coined phrases as questions demanding yes or no without reading out all the implications .

Scripture says God made himself man. Not half man half God and ect… he said he made himself man and I believe that. Then he died, and conquered death.

22

We agree then . You still believe he was man and God at the same time no half man half God. Soo…

23

Not really. The early christians believed he was God the council just reaffirmed it

24

I think he was 100% man. Then he became 100% God when he ascended.

25

Several (many–30 or 40) years ago, Christianity Today published an article that listed Calvinist and Arminian beliefs that are different, and then what they believed in common on those same issues. All I remember about the article is that there were a lot of important positions held in common. I found the article quite helpful and encouraging.

I visited Port Harcourt during my years in Nigeria, and stayed in the home of a staunch Calvinist teaching theology at the local public university. They invited me to come along to a dinner and birthday party for the daughter of one of their friends, who were Independent Baptists. At the party there was also the president of a theological school that was Arminian. The Baptist pastor at whose home we were meeting told me he had come to plant a church in Port Harcourt because there were none there–well there were thousands of churches in that city, but I guess none he recognized as “real” churches.

As I was in book distribution, the Arminian gave me a booklet that he suggested we carry in our bookstore. I read it that night–it talked of the “devilish and demonic doctrines of Calvinism that were sending millions to the pit of hell”–pretty much a verbatim quote. Then I read the booklet sitting by my bed, written by the father of the Calvinist professor who was staunchly opposed to Aminian theology.

And I reflected on the cordial evening and pleasant Christian fellowship we had together in the home of the Independent Baptist pastor and was glad (and a bit puzzled.)

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26

So Jesus would just have said im a man. Hes miracles then came from a man.Hes sacrifice is useless. How can a man take this world sins and then becoming equal with the Father? I dont known it sounds false. If i remember correctly Jesus when asked about him beign the messiah said Im . He answered in a previous question that he and the Father are one. The Jews accused him of blasphemy. Why? If he was a mere man who didnt claim to be God why would they do that. There were a lot of self proclaimed prophets that claimed to be the messsiah abd the Jewish leaders couldnt care less because they knew they were talking non-sense

27

Just saying if god is all knowing and can’t die, and can’t be tempted then Jesus was not god on earth. He was man, he was born, and he said don’t call me good only god is good. He told mary not to cling to him because he’s not yet ascended to the father.

His power came from the Holy Spirit same as the apostles did.

Only way all of those things seamlessly fits together is that Jesus was 100% human until after he defeated death, resurrected, and ascended to heaven and then he was god.

Otherwise God can be tempted, God does not know everything, and so on.

Hebrews 2 says itself that Jesus was made lower than the angels, so that He could be tested and ect…

It can’t be both.

28

You forget him beign human. Full God full human. You cannot comprehend God with your limited mind(neither do i or any of us) so trying to explain how ge was full man full God is pointless in my opinion

29

We simply disagree.

I believe Jesus was 100% human who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. He repeatedly placed God above him and Paul said Jesus was below angels, aka human. Jesus was not all powerful, all knowing or immortal. Just like humans. He then conquered sin, conquered death, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He continues being the scepter of god until he destroys all of Gods enemies and then hands them kingdom back over to God.

God came down to earth before. The story of genesis mentions that prior to the flood God fame down to earth. That’s not the same as God becoming human. It’s not the same as the the father using the power of the Holy Spirit to have mary conceive the messiah.

Since it seems like we see a very big difference between Jesus being 100% man and 100% god vs Jesus being 100% man until he ascended and became god I won’t continue to waste time explaining it more. We have each chose what we see in scripture. You believe the conclusions achieved by various councils are the final voices and to me those councils mean absolutely nothing.

I believe this is issue is something we can understand. After all Jesus did not know everything but understood this aspect of who and what he was.

30

Thats not the way it goes. What did the early Christians believed? A human cannot get sacrificed for the sins if all and then become one with God. The trinity doesnt make sense. You make Jesus sound like a lesser beign from the Father which is what Arius did . And the council had to step in. Jesus did abandoned some knowledge when he became a human but that doesnt mean he was not God at all. And how can a man like Jesus do miracles and stuff? Sure some prophets did it but let me ask you what prophets did forgive the sins? What man eas able to go and tell your sins are forgiven because i have the ok from God while myself a man? No one did only him. And thas why theres a need for a counsil . Some views cannot be true and cannot be accepted . If i believe that smoking is for example is a sin and you do not who is right? Those matters need to be settled down with proof from scripture and such so to come to a fin conclusion. Interesting though before the acceptance of the Christian faith the churches didnt have those theological and so problems. Only some little cultural ones. Anyway sorry for the long post i dont try to change your opinion on matters but i want emphasize the importance of a counsil of any sort. Like science. Scientists have different opinions but through counsils the get the wrong ones out of the way keeping the right ones

31

There are equal important things though (expect the core elements of faith) that we all dont agree with.

Why though? We have evidence to back it up. YEC doesnt. Simple.

Plus i speak on a spectrum of maters and not only evolution but its a good point. Thanks for the answer :slight_smile:

32

Jesus said repeatedly why he can do those things.

He was given authority and power to do so from God. Not by his own will. But by the will of God.

33

Prophets too but didnt went around forgiving sins. Only God can do that and the Jews knew it. Not one with authority only YWHW

34

So as stated above, regardless of what is say, or
How many verses I bring up, you disagree because a council said something differently. To each their own.

35

@NickolaosPappas

This is one of the areas where I go with traditional Christianity. Jesus is/was 100% human and 100% God. This means that two are not incompatible and this is because God has no limitations. God can be whatever He chooses to be. He is not a slave of human theology, but can put aside all power and knowledge to be a helpless human infant as He chooses. Thus I reject all the rhetoric which insists on a list of things God cannot do, to say God CAN. God CAN make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. God CAN take risks, make sacrifices, give privacy to others, … all the things required in the ability to love others. God is not a slave to power that He must control everything. God CAN and God DOES choose love and freedom over power and control. God can do evil as a power obsessed, glory hungry, control freak, like the god of this world, but He chooses not to. This choice is exemplified in the creation of life and in becoming a helpless human infant obedient to the laws of this world even unto His murder and death on the cross.

The miracles Jesus did? Jesus was crystal clear over and over that it was all the Fathers doing and He said in John 14:12 … “whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these.” So what Jesus did are things we can do also because it was all about a relationship with the Father who can do anything.

And yet I believe that Jesus is always was and always will be God. He is the human window through which we can understand what God is like. God is not made in our image, limited to a singularity of person-hood. But I do not believe this in order to make some theology of human-divine sacrifice empowered magic to work. God doesn’t require magic to forgive. The point of the Jesus death was not some ridiculous magic like this. It was about changing us with an understanding of a few realities – about the unavoidable cost of sin and willingness of God to give and do anything to help us overcome it.

36

We agree but i still hold to the position that Jesus sacrificed himself not on our behalf (well it could be) but out of love to bear the sins of the previous humans who died and to forgive ours.

37

As i said before to mi Krumm my point was to show the inportance of a counsil to distinct truth from false.

38

Addressing the original question…

We are all different, with different perspectives. Which will impinge on our beliefs and views. It would be ludicrous to expect us all to think the same and / or believe the same. Furthermore God seems to have introduced Himself very differently to some cultures (countries, peoples). Then, of course, there is schooling (Indoctrination?) and experience. Each will affect the individual’s beliefs.
The question would seem to be whether there has to be just one fixed belief, or does God interact with us on an individual basis?

Richard

39

Sorry richard but God is not some kind of elf shapesifting to different Gods. If you mean about the doctrines yes i agree. But if you say that the God of the muslims (for example)is the same God of us Christian i think you are wrong.

40

There is one God.

Two knights approached a statue, one from the north, one from the south. The first exclaimed “What a wonderful Gold Statue!” The second claimed, “but it is Silver!”. “You insult me!”
They were just about to fight when a damsel (not in distress for once) intervened…
“The Statue is Gold on the front and silver on the back.”

God is much bigger than a statue… perhaps we do not have the full picture?

Richard