(We have some beautiful snowdrifts, but the temperature just now passed -12°F on the way down towards a -20° forecast for morning. 
The geothermal heat pump has been running continuously.)
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Though I still lean towards conditional immortality there are some things that cause me to consider universalism.
Romans 5:12-19
New International Version
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
If through Adam death passed through all and it means every human ever, then why does the one righteous act not justify everyone.
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Whoa – real winter weather!
I don’t know if its a record or not, but our temp just descended to 24° F.
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We’ve had below -20° here before, but not since 1985. This house was built in 1997, and the coldest it’s seen was -14° or so in February a few years back. We’ll see how the plumbing fairs with -20° – I’m pretty sure it will be okay, but I do have water trickling from a couple of faucets.
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It is adequate to, but it needs to be appropriated. Adoption is one of the redemptive metaphors we see – it can be refused. (We can talk about Judas and God’s omnitemporality later. ; - )
Didn’t say the words were in Luke 16:14-31. They are the words of Jesus in Matthew 25.
Or rather Jesus’ words were the Aramaic version of κόλασιν αἰώνιον as the gospel of Matthew was written in the Greek. Obviously I am crediting the author of Matthew for translating Jesus’ words correctly.
No I do not. And neither does Jesus in this account of the gospel of Luke. Jesus is only saying that they could have listened to Moses and the prophets. And this is well said, since any message to Lazarus’ family from beyond death would be in the same category.
I disagree. It is not contrary to the redeeming love of God in Christ to warn of real and present danger to people and Jesus does so quite often.
It would be contrary to the love of God in Christ if it were God sending people to eternal torment to punish them for finite mistakes in a finite life on earth. But I don’t think this is about any such thing. I think it is about self-destructive habits which can destroy the human spirit.
That must be in another verse added to the text in Luke 16, one where it says Jesus is talking about this rather than what it actually says in the text of Luke in our Bibles.
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@St.Roymond sees an issue, and I don’t have a problem with his take (Greek and Aramaic scholar that I am ; - )…
No people like this exist in my opinion. People like this are hurt. I was one of them still is in some ways. People carry crosses out there far bigger than mine and yours . Maybe when they’ve prayed for relief they’ve met the same dead end as I. Silence . We all ask for a miracle but it seems it doesn’t work like that. No person would respond in hatred and anger in the end if they could repent at hells gates .
So you would discard the promise of “eternal life,” “everlasting kingdom,” and “eternal glory,” in favor of an “agewise” version of these things, whatever that means.
Yeah, I guess so, given that sometimes words mean different things in different contexts with different antecedents, qualifiers and objects, as he explained.
This was pretty clear, so how you see any discarding is just semantics:
Well I don’t buy it. When the same word is used the same speech and paragraph then it is clear to me that the meaning is intended to be the same. If a different meaning is intended then good speaking and writing requires using a different word in that case.
I think this is a mess, and the point I made below is correct in the context of the Luke text, that there is a disparity between what the Pharisees were claiming and what the prophets say. This swapping between Gospels does not accept that each Gospel has its own agenda and that the point made in one doesn’t necessarily confirm the point you want to make in another.
This is literally a text in Moses and the Prophets that Jesus says they should listen to. Especially poignant is the fact that NT writers associate Christ with much of what Isaiah wrote, and many scholars see Jesus in the tradition of the Prophets.
As Judaism has no concept of Heaven or Hell one has to wonder why Jesus introduced it?
Richard
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I disagree. Saduccees might not have believed in an afterlife because they were simply a societal class which didn’t care a lot about Jewish eschatological beliefs. They just had the rank of priests just to gain the benefits of priesthood. They didn’t care at all.
Prior to this the Jewish belief was that the dead go to Sheol which is like the Hellenistic version of Hades in which both good and evil people went. Now we don’t have much detail about it though.
Jesus didn’t introduced something new. In fact the Pharisees did held many beliefs that Jesus did(in some cases) this being the one.
Jesus also makes it clear that He’ll is a temporary place for both good men and bad ones. All will go there. HOWEVER the saved people’s hell “Blossom of Abraham” is in my understanding the purgatory. Until the resurrection of the dead the saved dead ones remain there.
Jewish beliefs about the afterlife include the idea of Olam Ha-Ba, which translates to “the World to Come.” This concept is not a place of reward or punishment like Heaven or Hell, but rather a state of being where the righteous are thought to be in closer communion with God.
The point is that without Heaven and Hell Christianity loses most of its raison d’etre.
Richard
Doesn’t any religion believing in a supernatural being though?
One thing to remember in these discussions, death , being left dead forever, is a punishment that is eternal. A second death is not saying it’s temporary. A second death is implying an eternal punishment of being left dead forever. For a fact, the closest thing on earth to an eternal punishment within our courts is the death sentence.
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There is no necessity for life to continue beyond this one, in fact concentrating on eternity can detract from the life we are living. The whole idea that this life is merely a right of passage to eternity is human fantasy. Isn’t this life enough? (assuming you get the chance to live it.) I guess it is the idea that we do not seem to have enough time, especially those who die young for whatever reason. We like to think that there should be more.
God is the creator. There is no reason to think that our lives are any more than part of this creation. Worshipping HImi is more a matter of courtesy than a means to an end (or beyond)
Richard
I know a lot of them. They aren’t interested in correction, they aren’t interested in learning; they reject those along with any offers of help. When someone offers advice, they get angry; when caught doing wrong and punished, they get angry; when told how to do something in any way but what they thought up they get angry. A kid I started trying to help fifteen years ago is like this, and he hasn’t changed; any kind of guidance just makes him angry.
Repentance requires first of all to stop making one’s self be one’s god. That’s how the kid I mentioned was and continues to be. He’s been to prison, to treatment programs, to half-way houses, to counseling, and it all just bounces off because he is his own god.
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