in traditional Christianity, Jesus Christ accepted death and suffering for the sins of the whole world. Christ came to atone for the sin of the first people. If a person appeared as a result of evolution, then he was originally mortal and sinful. Why then did Christ die if there was no first sin? How to reconcile the fall of the first people and the theory of evolution? I believe that evolution refutes the traditional understanding of the first sin. If Adam and Eve are just symbols and there was no first sin, what did Christ die for? I hope you can help me figure it out.
Christ came to atone for the sin of the world. Evolution is an issue for some people as far as it comes to the mechanics of “transmission” of original sin. But all Christians accept that each individual personally commits sins that need atonement, so I don’t understand what the issue is if “original sin” is not biologically transmitted. Everyone still sins and needs redemption. Why people sin (i.e. how/why/to what extent humans are they born sinful and how/why/to what extent people are held morally accountable for sin) is not really an atonement issue, it’s a hamartiology issue.
I am very worried about the issue of evil and death. death is an integral part of evolution. but in traditional Christianity it is believed that death is the result of sin
Spiritual death. That isn’t a problem for evolution.
Christ saves all by His life, by His faithfulness. Without His death and resurrection we wouldn’t know that. We wouldn’t know Him. We wouldn’t know God. We wouldn’t know all is well for all.
You’re right that evolution refutes a traditional understanding, if “traditional” means Adam & Eve are literal individuals who violate a literal command given by God. But that’s not the only way to read the story. Genesis 2-3 tell us how humanity acquired the “divine knowledge” of good and evil, and the result was shame/guilt and banishment from the garden of God’s presence. God granted us our independence, just like the story of the Prodigal Son. The result was spiritual death and alienation from God. “The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.” All of humanity went astray in the distant past, just as each of us go astray in the present.
Here’s how I reconcile that with evolution:
All are in need of redemption because everyone sins, both individually and collectively (whether as cultures, subcultures, or smaller groups). The process is the same for the individual as it is for the human race. We began as ignorant, and we when we reached moral maturity and gained the knowledge of good and evil, we declared our independence and chose selfishness over what we knew was right. The first “sin” was violating the conscience.
atonement is to bring sides together. Did Jesus change God’s thinking about you or did he change your thinking about God. Why would you think an all knowing God needed his mind changing?
The “traditional” understanding of the first sin is indeed the problem. Becoming mortal is the logical consequence of not living in God and thus God not living in you. There is no mentioning in the bible that “if you eat from that tree I am going to kill you” Death as in physically becoming one with creation again has always been the part of life.
We ‘fell’ by becoming aware, self aware, other aware, sharing intentionality and always failing to measure up to our own idealized expectations of ourselves especially imagined in the eyes of others. Ignorance was animal bliss; nasty, brutish and short. It is the evolution of shared intentionality in the last half million years that has elevated us along that long arc, explains our intelligence, and given a remarkable kick in, from Jesus at the perfect time in the development of historical culture that is still propelling us in, through, beyond our tiny island fortress of immense privilege.
it turns out that a loving God originally created man to be mortals?
do you think man was originally mortal, from the beginning of his existence?
I believe that all that suffers transcends. Because I want to : ) That God is that competent that He draws all of creation that can experience it, everything that loves to be loved, closer to Himself in Heaven. Through us now and after death. I mean, there’s no point believing in a fourth rate, incompetent, torturing and/or murderous God and His Heaven is there?
Jesus Christ was crucified and died on the cross for sedition.
Then later theologians, Paul and others, created the myth of being a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Who wrote the “Gospels”? We don’t know. All of the Gospels have unknown authors, written as “the Gospel according to” Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
what is wrong with being mortal? would you want to liveforever in a material body that is bound to ageing and breakdown? If you haven’t learned from Christ that we are meant to die whenever God decides it to be the time the atonement hasn’t worked on you. There are some that take the resurrection to make them dream of being their everlasting self. Others understand it to be the transition to live in Jesus like Jesus came to live in them. Mortality only occurs if you define your self in the physical body only. As long as you are still part of God you can’t die and in Jesus you can learn to be part of him again
God created man to be spiritual beings with eternal life from a relationship with God who is spirit.
We have a temporary existence in a physical/natural body just as we have a temporary existence in the womb.
Life is not a magical addition to the laws of nature. Physical life is a self-organizing process of growth and learning in order to survive in a system of laws where there are forces of decay and destruction. So Jesus says in Matthew 6: 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal
But the goal is eternal life in a spiritual body:
1 Corinthians 15: 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[b] also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Sure. Mortality is part of God’s good creation. The Resurrection is the gift that means it’s not the whole story for humanity. But God himself became incarnate as a mortal human. Mortality is not tied to sin. God raised Jesus from the dead as the first of immortal humanity. He never un-incarnated. Jesus is Lord today as a human who was granted immortality by the Father.
Many Christian traditions are based on Greek philosophies or other religions, which are then called biblical. One of those beliefs is that Adam was created immortal and became mortal because of sin, thus death became the curse for sin. Evolution and the Bible refute that story. Adam and Eve were not banished from the garden, they were kept from eating from the the Tree of Life. Sin did not force God to shun humanity, build a rift, or keep them from his presence. God went to the frightened people. He never cursed them. God went to Cain before and after the murder. He did not kill that man either. God sent Cain away to the “others,” people not related to Adam, for his safety. God even added the mark to keep the man safe. Our traditional stories add to and distort the creation stories to require condemnation.
Why did Jesus HAVE TO die? Genesis 15. God made a covenant with himself to keep the covenant (Abram acted as a witness). God promised to build a nation of people who would trust in that promise. Covenant mandated God’s death because humans are not faithful, even those who choose to be are not. God forgives our trespasses to demonstrate his passionate love. He would pay, not humanity.
Indeed! I quite agree. The notion of the immortal rational soul is from Greek philosophy or eastern reincarnation religions and not in the Bible. I don’t believe in any such thing.
But the Bible DOES speak of the spiritual. God is spirit. And the resurrection is to a spiritual body. That isn’t Greek philosophy at all.
To call this Biblical is to call God a liar. God said to Adam and Eve that on they day they ate the fruit they would die. So did they die or not? Who do you believe, God or the devil?
The lie of the snake is that our life is just physical – so he said they would not die. Adam and Eve did not die physically but spiritually. It is spiritual death which is the result of the fall not physical death.
Many here don’t take that story seriously but only as some sort of vague metaphor, but many here (like myself) do take that story seriously as being about two real people God spoke to and adopted as His children.
Thus my view is that a relationship with God is the tree of life and the fall severed our relationship with God. That is the relationship which Jesus came to restore.
No more than sin forced Jesus to shun people. That is a bit of nonsense invented by legalistic Pharisee theologians. Sin consists of self-destructive habits and in the case of Adam and Eve it was the habit of blaming everything and everyone but themselves for their own mistake. In this way Adam and Eve changed God from our greatest teacher into our greatest scapegoat. This made our relationship with God do more harm than good, and so He told them they would have to live by their own efforts, where blaming others simple doesn’t work.
Cain didn’t feel safe from those people at all. He thought they would kill Him. There is nothing in the Bible to say that Cain was afraid of Adam and Eve. He was only afraid because God condemned Him to wander out where all those strangers lived.
Because sinful human beings often refuse to change until their sins cause the innocent to suffer or die.
You cannot pay for sins. There are no indulgences. We must change. We must be perfect (without sin), because sin would bring the seeds of hell with us wherever we may go. Jesus never required any fancy song and dance, magical spell, or blood to forgive people of their sins. He simply said, “your sins are forgiven so go and sin no more.” It was all about stopping the sin which is destroying us.
what do you think about the posthumous fate of people? Is there life after death?
You just needed to read the previous post I made.
Like Paul says in 1 Cor 15, we have a spiritual body. It is dead because of sin since A&E, but it can be brought back to life.
The natural fate for sinful human beings is self destruction. Our resurrection requires the removal of sin by the grace of God.
You said, “To call this Biblical is to call God a liar.” Sorry, but sin causing death is a very old tradition. The English interpretation is “surely die” or “certainly die.” But the Hebrew translation is “dying you will die.” That phrase is used about 40 times in the OT in a variety of verb tenses. Not one of those require a physiological change from immortality. Why does this verse require a radically different interpretation? The tradition to condemn humanity.
However, two deaths is a running theme throughout the OT and boldly stated in the NT. Upon eating the fruit, sins could cause Adam’s soul to spiritually die. It would be dead before his body died. Only repentance reversed that situation.
Genesis 1 day 6 says God will make human-kind into his image, but not how. The Bible names two of them Adam and Eve in Genesis 2. Evolution theory suggests that the first humans came from almost-humans. Only tradition says that did not happen. So, I believe Adam and Eve were born and grew within a community whose lineage reached back to the first life form. God took those two and placed them into the garden, just like he placed the best of the plants (no thorns), and enough animals for them to name (this was not the order of their creation). Instead of respiration and heartbeat, God Breathed the spirit into Adam. Instead of a rib being cloned into Eve, the almost-human was given the same spirit as Adam. Our spirits are one, which lets us become the one bride of Christ. Just like us, they could then die before their death. Only after Adam and Eve needed clothes did God say they were like him, which is the closest place this story comes to saying humans are God’s image. The two then left to spread the spirit and knowledge.
I find it interesting that our genetics recognize a Y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They may or may not have known each other, but the result is the same. Every living human living are directly related to two individuals. Within the time those two lived, humanity began to blossom. We became different from the almost-humans. God kept us and slowly removed those without the spirit and the knowledge.
Our life is not just physical. Our life is not ruled by spirits, demigods, or Satan. Even when we believe those things as true.