I hope I’m not being too pessimistic here but this whole discussion stopped making sense a long time ago… Now that I think about it, it never made much sense to begin with.
It seems to me that the things Victor has been saying are not only not right, but to quote Wolfgang Pauli, they are “not even wrong”.
Of course it does not make sense. I am talking about testing the elementary assumption upon which Western science was historically contrived. I was trained in school to always think with this assumption because this is the first principle of modern science. This assumption was unknown during the age when the biblical prophets. Even the pagan philosophers could find no way around the notion that everything, everywhere is changing, although they tried. It was not until the Catholic scholastics (who believed God was immutable, not in time) that the notion that matter is not changing itself came into existence. This idea is basic to how scientists think, measure and mathematicate since they contrived their definitions of time, mass and energy with it. It has become undeniable. They cannot question it because it is implied in almost everything they do. The scientific universe is 99% magical, undetectable things to protect this fundamentalist, historical dogma.
Peter, a fisherman apostle of Jesus, predicted this idea 1000 years before it came into existence. He gives us two ways to test this idea. He says the last day mockers reject that the plural heavens came out long ago (ouranoi ek palai). Indeed, we can see thousands of galaxies clusters. By comparing the shape and colors of countless galaxies at many ranges we observe that galaxies and galaxy clusters spread out from globs of primordial matter whose atoms shone at tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms. Strings of star globs spread out, taking up more volume, spiraling out in violation of the idea upon which Western science was built. What we see confirms the literal creation account as God commands the lights in the plural heavens to become spreading things (Hebrew noun raqiya).
Peter said the Earth was formed in water. The water used to stand with the land. Later, the water destroyed the land in a cataclysm. Indeed, millions of cubic kilometers of marine fossils (chalk, limestone and shale) exist only on what used to be a single continent before the modern oceans began to form. The continents were joined into a single land mass on a much smaller globe before the modern oceans began to spread out along a global, volcanic expansion seam.
By the way, Neal Adams gets some things wrong in this video. But he does show graphically what the geologist S. Warren Carey wrote of decades ago, that the continents only fit together on a minuscule planet. The biblical God says three times that he is the one who continues in unbroken continuity to spread out the earth.
Science itself was contrived on an idea that is not allowed to be false. This is why changing earth creationist believe that God will get great glory when he abases the pride of man in their synthetic science.
Victor
Victor you keep stating this as a fact but could you please quote chapter and verse as they say. I quoted most of 2 Peter 3 above and it ain’t there.
First, how do you determine the range to a given galaxy?
How does that range relate to the age of the galaxy?
How do atoms shine?
How do you know how atoms shown in the past? Were you there? (sorry couldn’t resist)
Again, the Biblical God does NOT imply that everything changes at the same rate. If that were so, the continents would also change, like a balloon being blown up, as you point out. He says he continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundation of the Earth (Zech 12:1). Does this mean matter in the core of the Earth is taking up form and expanding more than surface rocks?
The same passage says that God is also spreading out the plural heavens in unbroken continuity. We cannot see what is happening in the core of the Earth but we can see how the galaxies formed. In the core of each galaxy evidently lies unformed matter that shoots out jets. In the early universe globs packed with stars emerged “from things not seen” as the plural eons passively formed (Hebrews 11:3). How do we know this is not a black hole? The double ended jets and streams of star globs do not even bend in the vicinity of the alleged black hole. If the point source had gravity so strong that even light can’t escape, it should bend the path of the emerging matter. Clearly the properties of matter are emergent. However the emergent matter is not all changing at the same rate. In fact, the emergent matter has relational characteristics. Relational change is where the properties of matter shift together, in parallel affecting each other and being affected by each other.
By the way, in 2011, Stefan Gillesen, from the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics, predicted that a dark cloud (G2) would fall into the black hole in the center of the Milky Way, Sagittarius A*. For several years astronomers daily monitored Sgr A* with X-ray and radio telescopes, expecting to confirm the existence of a black hole. The cloud morphed into twin jets during a period of extremely quiet X-ray activity. G2 sped away from the alleged hole without falling in. Various ad hoc theories have emerged to preserve the notion that black holes exist, such as the cloud concealed two colliding stars or perhaps a dozen smaller black holes caused the cloud to stretch out with blobs at the ends of the jets. Space.com story
Change and science are opposite worldviews. Change is confirmed in the visible history of how galaxies formed. Scientists fill the universe up with mythical things like black holes, invisible matter and vacuums that adjust the frequencies of passing light. Why? They have a first law. What first law (arche ktiseous)? The one Peter predicted for the last days.
Victor
I am interpreting 2 Peter 3:3-6 using Greek, not modern translations.
We cannot really measure the distance to a galaxy.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.
That does not mean we cannot see the past, which has been known for 300 years (Ole Romer). The earliest galaxies often have tiny angular dimensions, which is what we would expect.
They shine at tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms. In fact, the Hubble only sees the wallpaper of the most distant galaxies at the extreme edge of its infrared capabilities. If the James Webb telescope functions as intended, it should farther than the Hubble and with greater resolution, since its segmented beryllium mirrors are much larger. It also will have the first helium refrigerator ever sent into space.
Early distant galaxies have radically different shapes than modern, local galaxies. You can download an image (megabytes in size) from the Hubble site of the XUDF.
There used to be clickable grapes data available for each of the 10,000 galaxies in the UDF with the spectrum of each galaxy. I have a local copy but I no longer see it on the Internet.
Paul wrote that light reveals the truth and exposes error because everything that is visible is light (phos estin Ephesians 5:13). Indeed, the Earth was dark and unformed until God’s wind dithered in unbroken continuity above the dark surface. He continued to command the light. Indeed, light never stops dithering around within all substances. This is why light reveals the truth because matter is a relationship with light.
The biblical God repeatedly claims to spread out the plural heavens in unbroken continuity. During the Old Testament era, people could see the Milky Way and planets. They told stories about how the planets used to pass close to Earth producing massive destruction. The Bible mentions similar events. However, in our day, with telescopes (such as ALMA) that observe in every part of the spectrum, we actually see to near the creation era. What we see is change. How galaxies changed from tiny naked distant infrared globs to nearby giants whose arms have spread out, accelerated out as trillions of star streams emerged from billions of widely separated globs of unformed matter God created (completed action verb) on the first day.
Change and science are opposite worldviews. What we see is change. Scientists tell ad hoc stories about how some galaxy clusters have 100 times as much invisible matter as the visible kind. They allege that space time is accelerating the stretching of the vacuum as it adjusts the frequencies of all ancient light. Change is real. Change is not allowed in science because they believe that since matter formed, it remain the same. Scientific operational definitions and mathematical laws depend on this assumption.
Victor
What do you think modern translations are based on? Other English translations? They all go back to the Greek. The translation is not in question. The simple context tells you that you have got it wrong. But I know you will never admit that.
Good old Ole who measured the speed of light? Wait you don’t beleve time exists so how do you measure a speed (distance / time)? A small angular dimension might be what YOU expect, but what about a close galaxy that is small? It isn’t proof of distance unless you know before hand the sizes of the galaxies.
Think this might be due to the redshift of the visible light due to the speed of the expanding universe? Isn’t the expanding universe part of your belief system?
I think you are confusing the redshift for a change in matter. That fact that the spectral lines of distant suns match those of nearby suns when you adjust for the redshift shows you that matter has not changed. Of course you can just deny (why do I know that you will) that the doppler effect exists even when you can see evidence of it in the real world. Which gets to be interesting when you consider that the identification of which galaxies are the most distant was done using the redshift.
My point exactly. That’s why I’ve contributed very little to this thread, and to be honest I don’t understand why everyone else has been taking it so seriously.
It’s Gene Ray and Time Cube all over again.
You have to admit that it makes good filler.
If time doesn’t exist, what do we say about taking the vital signs of a person or animal? Heart rate is measured in beats per minute, and any variation from the norm usually means a pathological condition. Same thing with respiratory rate, measured in breaths per minute. And without time, how do we access a child’s developmental milestones? And how do we have meaningful laws? Some laws depend on age, like smoking, drinking, driving, joining the armed services, etc.
And so my friends, colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
… or would … if they could find the time.
You win the internet today!
This is an application of the idea Peter predicted for the last days: that all things remain the same. No one ever detected light shifting its frequencies in a lab experiment. Redshift is never observed. It was invented to prevent a violation of the basic assumption: that the properties of matter are not shifting with age.
By the way, we can compare when an eclipse of a Galilean moon happens with repetitive phenomena like pendulum clocks, as Ole did. He noticed the eclipses happened after the clocks predicted, when Jupiter was on the far side of the Sun. However no one ever detected any time. Ole defined it with pendulum clocks. Boulder Colorado defines it with a cesium fountain clocks.
We can see the past with telescopes. In billions of examples at many ranges, we observe, sometimes in a single deep vistas such as in the XHUDF, how galaxies change their spectral colors and shapes over cosmic history. What we observe confirms the account of day four. God continues to command the lights in the plural heavens (that include the Sun, Moon and stars) to become spreading things (raqiya). The spreading things are to shine on the earth and mark the days and years. Spreading things do not mark time. They mark change. The Bible agrees with other ancient societies about close planet passages back in the era when days and years were vast geological ages. Job describes the geological phenomena that marked off a lifetime as their faces intensely changed in unbroken continuity (Job 14). If we lived long enough to watch the Mediterranean dry (West in Job’s language) we would grow thick Neanderthal brows from vast age. The skull is the only part of our Skelton that keeps gradually growing with age. Neanderthal children had faces like modern children yet with striations and wear on primary teeth as though they had lived for vast ages in few days.
Change and science are diametrically opposite ways of understanding Earth and cosmic history.
Victor
Have you ever received a speeding ticket where the police officer used his radar gun to measure your car speed? Radar guns work on the Doppler shift of microwaves that are changed in frequency when they are reflected from your car. That is the same as a redshift in light. They are both just electromagnetic energy at different frequencies. And if you had just done a simple Google search your would have found tons of links to results that have verified redshift.
And you have probably heard a Doppler shift of sound if you have ever noticed the pitch of a train whistle change as it approaches you and then moves away. Same principle.
BTW, my copy of Carey’s book just arrived. This may well be worth the $1.79 that it cost. The chapter on immaculate maidens should be interesting.
When your one and only guiding principle is change, then you can justify making up whatever you want, whenever you feel like it, without any need to build a testable model. Why bother with experiments and data? Everything is changing!
There has been one redeeming aspect of this conversation, though; some of the participants explained to Victor the Biblical support for the existence of structure and reliability in the universe. Thanks for your contributions.
Peace,
Chris
The change in tone of a passing truck is not a real change. It is caused by the relative motion. Another vehicle traveling at the same speed alongside the truck does not detect the change in tone.
Changes in frequency can only occur using matter, e.g. absorption and retransmission. Even when light transits through water, it only changes it wavelength by slowing down, not its frequency. Individual bits of light (or radio) with different frequencies do not actually add up into a combined frequency. They only seem to do so because of our broad banded detectors. The transmitted signal is received signal, except for minor Doppler effects.
Decades ago astronomers assumed that the redder colors of distant galaxies was due to Doppler. This is why they imagined that the universe is expanding. They had to change their terminology because many galaxies would need to be running away at greater than the speed of light. They now imagine that galaxies are standing still relative to their local space. It is the space between galaxies that they imagine is expanding. I call this the vacuum of space time stretching passing light, since no one has ever detected any space time.
No immaculate maidens. Just geology. Carey worked in Papua / New Guinea that has wild geology. Mountains uplift so steeply that the residents in one valley may not be able to climb into the next valley, which is why they have so many languages on the island. The glaciers and snow on these extremely high peaks are melting today. Trying to explain this extreme geology made Carey think.
His technical descriptions of Benoiff zones does not rely on undetectable subduction. By undetectable I mean no scarps, no scraped off seamounts, no scrapped off marine oozes, no volcanic vents etc. He shows that even if we assume there is subduction, we still have a problem. Most of the Earth oceans do not have any areas that could be identified as Benoiff zones.
He does not mention the biblical passages for the Earth spreading out in unbroken continuity.
Victor
There is a testable model. It is light, what we see, not what we measure. We can see the creation exactly as spelled out in the Bible. It is measuring things with the medieval notion that matter is NOT shifting its properties that causes the confusion.
The Apostle Paul uses two orderly submission (hupotasso) verbs to describe how the universe is enslaved to change. He also uses two together (sustenazei) verbs to describe how everything changes in parallel, together. Indeed, atoms shift their properties in an orderly together (relational) manner throughout visible cosmic history. How can we be sure it is not space time shifting the light? Because the orbits steadily accelerate outwards as galaxies grew. The star streams orbits do not close, they accelerate continually as they spread out.
We have a creator who is infinitely wise.
Victor
Yes it is caused by the relative motion that is the whole point. But the change is real. The radar gun compares the transmitted signal to the reflected signal and measures the real frequency change. For example, at 60 mph the difference measured, and therefore real, is about 440 Hz for the microwave frequency used. Can you explain how to measure something that is not real? BTW I am trained as an engineer so I do know a thing or two.
Again, doesn’t an expanding space time fit your “spreading plural heavens” world view?
How can it change it’s wavelength but not it’s frequency. They are inversely related to one another. The longer the wavelength the lower the frequency. That is the basic definition.
Funny my copy has immaculate maidens on page 81,
We find measuring in the Bible. Lengths (cubits) are referenced to one’s personal forearm, palms or fingers. Dry and wet volumes to a particular sized container. Weights for silver, by comparing with a standard weight on a scale. Duration to the position of the Sun or moon. Notice that all these things reference things that are visible and all are relative. (If matter is changing itself, both sides of a scale would change together and it would remain in balance.) This is in keeping with the ancient worldview that everything is changing. Paul said WE know (everyone in that era knew) that that the whole creation groans together and suffers together pains until now. Ancient people, including the biblical prophets, looked back on the past as the eon-age when people lived for vast geological ages in few days. Together change is relative change, not relativity, that depends on the notion that atoms are perpetual motion engines.
The ancient system of measuring is remarkably different from scientific measuring. The primary measuring unit in science is a second of time. This is defined by the dithering of atoms. Thousands of other units are operationally scaled from the operational definition of an atomic second. Yet every atom in the universe visibly runs at a different speed than modern atoms. Even modern atoms, when compared to their own emissions from hours ago, also accelerate in the same direction and “distance to the transponder rate” as the atoms in hundreds of billions of galaxies. The only modern standard that does not shift with changing atoms are angles, that simply divide a circle into parts. Standard platinum kilograms, stored in different gravitational environments (countries) keep shifting relative to each other when periodically compared. This is why some scientists propose to measure kilograms with a watt balance. In other words, all measuring definitions (except for angles) must be absolute (not relative) and they must be based on Friar Thomas’ metaphysics that matter is not changing itself with age.
By the way, light transiting through water slows down by the delay involved in interacting with billions of water atoms. This is why the wavelength increase. When the light leaves the water, it returns to its former frequency and wavelength. Light transiting through a void is never seen to change itself. Even dim light from other sources does not interfere with or modify other light as they transit through a void. This is why the theory of redshift is entirely based on Friar Thomas’ metaphysics, not something we can detect in an experiment.
If change is real and fundamental, then neither time nor space time exist. the vacuum of space time is not spreading out. Instead, ancient atoms clocked tiny fraction of the dithering rates of modern atoms. How can we test this? We can see cosmic history. We see this by comparing the shape and colors of countless galaxies (like looking at the individual frames of a movie film). Cosmic history is the only history that we observe as it happens. Ancient galaxies were often tiny and unextended. Globs packed with stars emerged and spread out, accelerated out, often growing into huge, local, dusty growth spirals as the visible properties of all matter keeps changing relationally. The clocks and the orbits accelerate together. Change is real. Time is nothing more than philosophical speculation. The visible history of the universe only fits the Hebrew grammar of Day Four. This is why changing earth creationists expect that biblical creation will vanquish Western science.
Victor
I hear the sound of one hand clapping.
Perhaps because that was all the technology that was available to them?
In other words, time.
Do you know any physics at all? There are many units defined that do not use time. If you look at the seven basic units from which all others can be derived time is used once. The others have no reference to time. If you would like I can compile you a list, but it will be long. On second thought, you can just Goggle it. Look for SI units.
And you should certainly know that the original definition of a second was 1/86,400 of a mean solar day. The duration that you keep saying isn’t time. Using atomic clocks came much later.
No it’s not. From the article that you linked to, “The redefinition–which is not intended to alter the value of the kilogram’s mass, but rather to define it in terms of unchanging fundamental constants of nature will have little noticeable effect on everyday life. But it will remove a nagging uncertainty in the official kilogram’s mass, owing to its potential to change slightly in value over time, such as when someone touches the metal artifact that currently defines it.” So you are endorsing the concept of “unchanging fundamental constants” now?
Light is bent by changes in the propagation velocity as the light moves from one medium to another. This is referred to as the refraction index. Many things bend light, water, air, and gravity for instance.
Saying this repeatedly isn’t going to make it true.
Do you know what a spectra line is? Why do the spectra lines of a distant sun match our sun’s exactly when you adjust for a non-existent redshift? I have seen and measured spectra lines so I know that they are real.
BTW, if you haven’t noticed I really like physics, but it has been quite a few years since my last physics course.
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