Change and Time in Genesis

Faith & Science Conversation
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Hebrews 1:2 defines these last days: when Jesus the Son of God spoke us. He is the heir of all things and through whom the world was made. The last days began with Jesus’ birth and consummates with his return.

Kitisis can mean creation, a building, a creature or a law. Each of these has an example in scripture. For example, 1 Peter 2:13 speaks of every ordinance of man “anthropine ktisei”. An example of this expression meaning the first law is in Mark 10:6. The disciples asked Jesus whether it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife. Jesus said it was not so from the first law (arch ktisis). God commanded that a man should leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. No mothers and fathers existed at this stage, so this was the first law for all human societies. Please notice that the context is not the beginning of creation but laws. Moses modified God’s first law because of the hardness of their hearts. Besides this law was not pronounced at the beginning of creation, but on the sixth day. In 2 Peter 3, again the context is not about the beginning of creation but the first law of the last day mockers. What do they do with their law? They obfuscate cosmic and Earth history which is what modern scientists do Why? The structure of Western science was built on the medieval scholastic assumption that “the essence of substance is changeless”, that matter’s intrinsic properties are fixed.

This is why changing earth creationists expect that God will abase the pride of man in their science, for his great glory. Why would God do this? Man cannot come to faith through science. He saves us for his glory and no man will be able to boast in his presence.

Victor

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Point of grammar: This plural should be a singular

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You mean this Mark 10:6?
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Nowhere can I find a use of ktesei or ktiseos to mean law. The closest would be institution/ordinances which would refer to social regulations and not physical laws.

Here is the quote again.
“They will say, ‘Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’” (NIV)

Ancestors refers to Adam, Moses, Abraham, etc. Pretty much goes back to creation. So it makes sense that the context is from the beginning of creation.

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I explained that in Mark 10:6 arche ktiseos was interpreted as the beginning of creation. However, the context clearly shows he is talking about laws. The first law, arche ktiseos Jesus said, was the marriage law. 1 Peter 2:13 the word ktisei refers to human laws, not human creation. He even mentions obeying the king.

This is the same phrase used in 2 Peter 3. How accurate is the scripture. When I was a child my teachers taught me to think scientifically with the first law. However, they taught it by implication, never actually mentioning it. I did practice problems measured synthetic things based on Friar Thomas’ notion that matter IS not changing itself.

The scientific universe is mostly myths. They even measure billions of years with their concept of time. Yet we can see to the creation era. Billions of galaxies grew out from the formless things God created first. How did formless matter receive form? His wind dithered in unbroken continuity above the dark surface of the earth as he continues to command light. Indeed, light dithers around within all atoms to this day giving them extension. Early atoms visibly had less extension than modern atoms. They also clocked much less than 10% of the frequencies (colors) of modern matter. Galactic star streams accelerate outwards (in defiance of the first law of science) along with the accelerating light clocks.

Change and time are diametrically opposite worldviews.

Victor

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Hopefully I am not interfering here. But the Greek word for creation (ktisis) may include both the single word for create as well as that which allows creation to have stability and form, ie. the law. It is sometimes referred to as nomological existence, from nomos = law.

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Jesus was clearly talking about the creation of male and female and the institution of marriage. The reference to law would be Moses defining a writ of divorce which was being abused by the Jews. How do you get from that to your “first law?” And if you go down to verses 11-12 you will see that divorce is legal, but remarriage after divorce is not. At least in this passage. And anyway wouldn’t the first law be to love the Lord God with all your heart? Why do you consider divorce to be the first law?

Not laws human institutions.
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

Even if I grant you these verses relate to religious/governmental laws how do you get to scientific laws which are in a whole different category?

And why are you taking what is being said by the scoffers in Peter’s time (notice the quotation marks?) as the truth? You don’t think that someone who is mocking Christians might not be telling the truth? You appear to be basing your whole “everything changes” belief system on the words of 1st century mockers.

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Words have different meanings, sometimes contradictory, depending on context. In English, to make a boat fast is to tie it up so it does not move. A fast runner runs. Fast dye doesn’t run. A long fast is going without eating etc.

The word arche in Greek can mean what is first in precedence or what is first in importance. The context tells you what it means. The first law for all human societies was the marriage law, which Jesus said Moses later modified because of the hardness of their hearts. He is not talking about the most important law, but the one that came before any others. No other societal law predates this one, given on the sixth day, long after the beginning of creation.

Please notice that these are not first century mockers. They are future mockers speaking in the last days. The mockers believe that all things remain the same since they came out (apo). Indeed, since atoms formed, scientists believe thay remain the same. They must believe this because it is the fundamentalist basis for their measuring definitions and mathematical methods.

They call on the fathers to support their claim that matter has fixed properties. Indeed, scientists often refer back to astronomical events from long ago to support their belief that all things remain the same. (They are so convinced that time exists, is linear and orbits are fixed that they almost always adjust the astronomical observations, such as ancient eclipses, to fit our mathematical calculations. Yet they almost never fit without adjustments, such as the first astronomical record the Venus Tablets of Ammizaduga.

Peter prophesies about two natural history evidences that they obfuscate because of this idea. 1. The plural heavens came out long ago. 2. The Earth’s water used to stand with the land through with the ancient orderly system (kosmos) was destroyed.

NO scientists, creationist or evolutionist, can accept the visible record of how billions of galaxies intrinsically grew, the stars coming out from point like cores long ago. Yet what is visible fits the grammatical words of the Bible (but not efforts to interpret the Bible with science). Scientists cannot accept the watery geology of our own planet because their law-like principle is that matter has fixed properties.

Changing Earth Creationist is not a new way of interpreting the Bible. It is simply going back to accept it as a contemporary would before the concept of time was invented. Change and time are diametrically opposite ways of interpreting natural history.

Victor

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About how much time would you say you spend on each post? (An estimate is fine.)

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I can spend money but not time. Why not? Time has no actuality. It takes me a fractional part of a day or night to write. A prophet of the Bible could never run out of time or spend time doing something. They could run out of daylight, a lunation, a year, opportunity or life, but they could not run out of time. Before the pagan philosophers people did not imagine the existence of undetectable things like time.

Victor, writer for the changing earth foundation. We promote interpreting Creation hermeneutically, in the grammar and worldview of the prophets, change instead of time. Change and time are diametrically opposite worldviews.

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2 Peter 3:1–13 (NASB95)
1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,

The letter was written late first century to mid second century. The “you” would be people alive then as this is his second letter to them.

2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

Still talking to those first/second century believers.

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

We both agree that “the last days” run from Christ’s first advent to his second so mentioning “in the last days” could still be referring to those first/second century believers. The mockers were mocking the Christians of that day and possibly even Peter himself. There are other references to this in other NT books but I don’t have the chapter/verses here in front of me.

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

Peter is pointing out that the mockers of his day have forgotten what is going to happen in the future on the day of the Lord. The Lord created this world, destroyed it with a flood, and is going to destroy it at some point in the future with fire.

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

I believe Peter is referring to the recipients of the letter when he says “beloved” so he has never changed his reference from his present to the future.

Where do you believe Peter changed from writing to the first century Christians to writing about the future?

I am not saying that there will not be mockers in the days leading up to the day of the Lord. I just don’t see how this passage means what you are trying to make it mean.

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Chapter 2 he predicts false religious teachers. Chapter 3 he writes to the beloved, the recipients of the letter. However, he predicts something that will happen in the last days. False teachers existed in that era, including the pagan philosophers who had a profound effect on epistemic history. However, even the pagan philosophers of Peter’s day admitted that everything is changing. The Greeks did not even have the grammatical tools to say matter has a fixed “essence.” Their present indicative of the verb to be, enai, is dynamic not static. The concept of unchanging matter did not begin until the popes promoted the writings of the Dominican Aquinas.

2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, (21) for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

We verify this prophesy is referring to our days because of the two things the mockers do because they regard the notion that all things remain the same.

  1. They reject that the heavens came out ek palai. Scientific cosmologies are the greatest mythologies in history because they cannot accept the visible history of how the galaxies billions of galaxies spread out from countless primordial cores. Why not? They believe that all things remain the same. They reject the watery geology of our planet because it violates there fundamental principle that all things remain the same. Even their measuring units and mathematical laws depend on this assumption. Therefore, we must be in the last days because this prophesy is being fulfilled in your ears.

Victor

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I hate to break the news, but a “fractional part of a day or night” really is time, no matter what you might claim.

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You are right. He said just as there were false prophets in the past there are and will be false religious teachers. Nothing about science here.

Which prophesy? Peter is referring to the apostles in 2 Peter 1:16-21 to show their authority.

Funny but that sounds like the Big Bang.

No they just use the evidence in God’s creation to show us the history of the earth. That might not agree with YOUR particular interpretation of Genesis but that doesn’t make it wrong.

Peter believed he was living in the last days, we are living in the last days, and future generations, if the Lord tarries, will be living in the last days. Your take on science has nothing to do with being in the last days or not.

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Hi Victor -

If you remove every single last molecule of the world’s oceans, and fill in the gaps left behind by rearranging the rest of the earth’s material, you will only reduce the earth’s radius by about 2.6 km.

How is that? Your calculations make a huge error; they are built on the assumption that the oceans extend all the way to the center of the earth. Under that assumption, removing the oceans leaves only 30% of the earth’s volume, and you proceed to your result.

However, the assumption on which your whole edifice is built is patently wrong.

The average depth of the oceans is in fact 3.7 km. Moreover, the oceans only cover 70% of the earth’s surface. Removing the oceans and rearranging the earth’s rocks to fill in what was removed, therefore decreases the earth’s radius by 70% of 3.7km, which rounds up to 2.6 km.

Have a blessed week as you serve our Lord and Savior.

Chris Falter

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Correct me if I am wrong, Victor, but I believe that your premise is that matter itself was smaller. At least that is the idea I get from reading your posts, though honestly I really do not follow a lot of what you assert.

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I believe I can explain Victor’s idea. All of the current continents can be fit together into one continent that covers the entire surface of the earth if you just reduce the radius of the earth to 58% of it’s current value. What causes the earth to expand and lead to the current spreading of the continents I don’t have a clue. He believes matter is constantly changing and I guess this leads to a growing earth. Victor did I get it right?

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What the Bible states about creation does not fit a big bang. He created the plueal heavens, completed action verb. [quote=“Bill_II, post:244, topic:5594, full:true”]
I believe I can explain Victor’s idea. All of the current continents can be fit together into one continent that covers the entire surface of the earth if you just reduce the radius of the earth to 58% of it’s current value. What causes the earth to expand and lead to the current spreading of the continents I don’t have a clue. He believes matter is constantly changing and I guess this leads to a growing earth. Victor did I get it right?
[/quote]

Yes, you got it right.

My analysis of the radius of the ancient Earth does not concern itself with Earth’s volume, as Chris Falter does. Why Not? I reject the historical, foundational assumption upon which Western science was contrived. It is the medieval, Dominican notion that the properties of matter fixed, not changing.

During Noah’s cataclysm the Earth had a radius ~58% of its modern radius based only on the difference in surface area and the radius that would fit those differences. Obviously the volume must change, but that does not violate my prime assumption. Why no?

Zechariah 12:1. God is actively and in unbroken continuity laying the foundation of the Earth and actively in unbroken continuity spreading out the plural heavens. How could he do that? His wind dithers in unbroken continuity above the dark, unformed Earth. He continues to command light (imperfect verb) beginning on day one. Indeed, light never stops dithering around within all matter giving it extension to this day. He continues to command the lights in the plural heavens to become spreading things (the spreading Sun, Moon and stars). He continues in unbroken continuity to spread out the earth above the waters.

We can see the past to the creation era. All ancient matter is visibly unlike modern matter. Ancient atoms clocked tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms. Ancient galaxies were often naked midgets. When we compare the shape and colors of countless galaxies in all directions we observe galactic history. Star globs emerged and spread out from point sources. Star globs accelerated outward, following each other out in lanes, growing into huge growth spirals, which confirms the grammar of Creation day four. The clocks and the orbits accelerate together as countless galaxies become spreading things (noun raqiya) exactly as in the creation account. .

What is visible violates the fundamental assumption upon which Western science was built. However, it confirms the literal words of the Bible.

Victor

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Let’s see. The Big Bang says that there was nothing and then there was space/time and enough energy to form all of the matter in the universe. That sure fits “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” for me. In fact it is creation literally in an instant which sure sounds like God did it.

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This is all very hard to follow. It seems like the discussion needs to retrace back to a basic level. Let’s make it really simple.

Suppose that the fundamental properties of matter change such that molecules become 70% larger. Then the continents themselves would grow along with the matter of which they are composed. If the continents covered the entire earth when the molecules were smaller, then they would still cover the entire earth when the molecules became bigger.

Here’s an experiment that illustrates what happens to the continents when matter itself expands:

Step 1: Let’s make a model earth with continents. Blow up a balloon and pinch the valve with one hand so no air escapes. With your other hand, grab a Sharpie and draw some continents on the balloon. Make sure the entire surface of the balloon is covered with continents.

Step 2: We are going to make the size of the material that composes the continents grow! Blow up the balloon until it is 70% larger. This simulates the effect of molecules becoming 70% larger. Tie the balloon.

Step 3: Let’s see whether the “continents” grew along with the “molecules.” Examine the surface of the balloon. Is model earth still covered with “continents”?

So I respectfully disagree with the statement you made 10 hours ago, Victor.

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Of course, if the earth were expanding, you could measure it. I presume you could argue that the yardstick expands also so you would get the same measurement, but that would be inconsistant with the continents moving apart, since the continents themselves should expand to cover the same proportion of the earths surface.
Methinks we are down a rabbit hole.

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