Celebrating the Reconciliation of the World

(system) #1
This weekend, we remember how the Cross and empty tomb reconcile God with humankind, and foreshadow the transformation of all creation.
This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://biologos.org/blogs/deborah-haarsma-the-presidents-notebook/celebrating-the-reconciliation-of-the-world

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #2

Either we are reconciled with God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ or we are not.

I understand that we are, but we cannot not be if Creation is not reconciled to itself, because it is created in such a way (by God) to be in conflict with itself based on the process we call evolution.

(George Brooks) #3

The early Gnostic branches of Christianity claimed that material creation, by its very nature, is at odds with the Divine… I think that makes a lot of sense. The Divine is qualitatively different from all the rest of creation.

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #4


Thank you for your response…

The Gnostics were never branches of Christianity. They were and are the branches of a foreign organism claiming to be Christian.

The material is different from the spiritual, but it is not at odds with God. Qualitatively the Creation is Good and so is God Who is the Source of Creation. That is why the Gnostics are wrong and why Darwinism is wrong, and Christianity is right.

(George Brooks) #5



There is the story about the heretic…

"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, “Stop! Don’t do it!”

“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.

I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said,

“Like what?” I said,

“Well, are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.”

I said, “Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?” He said, “Christian.”

I said, “Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?” He said, “Protestant.”

I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, “Baptist!”

I said, “Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!”

I said, “Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?” He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of God!”

I said, “Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?”

He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!”

I said, “Die, heretic scum!” and I pushed him off.

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #6


You are the one who is using the word heretic.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

(George Brooks) #7

AND you said that Gnostics weren’t even Christian… what more does it take to be a heretic?

(Klaas Oordt) #8

Jezus werd geboeid om ons in vrijheid te stellen.

.1 Jezus bevrijdt van schuld opgebouwd door zonden.
.2 Jezus bevrijdt mij van het kwaad in mij waardoor ik zonden doe.
.3 Jezus bevrijdt mij van mijn begeerte, mijn diepste nood en wortel van alle kwaad.

.4 Jezus bevrijdt mij van pijn, van ziekte en van handicaps.

.5 Jezus bevrijdt mij van hartzeer en verdriet.

.6 Jezus bevrijdt mij van angst.

.7 Jezus bevrijdt mij van mijn schaamte en gebrek aan zelfrespect.

.8 Jezus bevrijdt van natuurrampen en van een zinloze schepping die zucht en onderworpen is aan ‘the struggle for life’ en ‘tje survival of the fittest’.

.9 Jezus bevrijdt mij van satan, zijn medewerkers en hun listen.

.10 Jezus bevrijdt mij van mijn ondergang, dat is de dood.

Jezus is de Uitweg, hij spreekt de Waarheid en, wie wil, geeft hij eeuwig Leven, d.i. het kennen van de Vader, een liefdevolle, vrije verbondenheid met de Almachtige.

“Want wanneer de Zoon u vrijmaakt zult u werkelijk vrij zijn.” Johannes 8:36

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #9


Many people are not Christians, including Jews, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, atheists, et al. which does not brand them as heretics.

(George Brooks) #10


How you spin in circles.

I mentioned the early Gnostic Christian viewpoint of MATTER being at odds with the DIVINE.

Then you said Gnostic Christians weren’t really Christians.

Then I made humor over how quick some Christians are to DEMONIZE another branch of Christianity; specifically, the punchline of the joke used the word “heretics”.

Then you said you didn’t say anything about Gnostics being heretics.

So I pointed out that you said the Gnostic Christians weren’t really Christians… that’s usually short-hand for heresy.

AND AT LAST, you innocently comment that people can be OTHER things without being heretics.

HA! You got me rolling around on the floor with all this …

SURELY you will admit that if someone says they ARE Christians, and you say they are NOT Christians, this is the very essence of accusing them of heresy.

But in fact, your charge against the Gnostics is even WORSE than heresy: you simply pronounce them NON-CHRISTIAN - - in other words, FRAUDS - - and walk away.

Which doesn’t change the metaphysical dilemma of all NATURAL creation - - it is at odds with the DIVINE - - no matter WHO says it…

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #11


George, you made the distinction between Gnostic Christians and Christian Christians.

You also said that Gnostics see matter as at odds with the divine, which is different from the way that Christians see reality. When people hold very different metaphysical positions, How can they be the same? If the Gnostics were not different from others, why did they write their own Gospels?

I can understand why people do not want to be called a heretic, which is why I do not call people heretics, but a Gnostic is a Gnostic, and a Gnostic is not a Christian.

You assert that the Divi9ne and the material are in conflict, contrary to the Biblical view without providing evidence, just as you defend your view of evolution. Saying so does not make it so. Where is the evidence?

(George Brooks) #12

I think there are many Christians who see matter as at odds with the Divine. Non-human animals are certainly part of nature … and a lot of them (in particular carnivores) are not DIVINE in any way.

The issue of whether Gnostics are Christians really has nothing to do with the viewpoint… I merely cited them as an early group that consistently views the Cosmos in that way.

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #13

@gbrooks9, are you felling okay?

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #14


Humans are a part of nature. Humans also eat meat so they are carnivores. So are you saying that humans are not divine in any way.

(George Brooks) #15


Humans are animals as moral agents…

Non-human animals are not usually presented as moral agents.

Basic logic here, Roger: Some food is fruit. Poison apples are fruit. Does this mean Poison apples are food? No. Of course not.

(Roger A. Sawtelle) #16


Your logic is bad, so your thinking is wrong. Apples are food. Poison is not food. Poison does not occur naturally in apples, unless you consider spoiled apples a poisoned, but of course it is understood that spoiled apples are not food.

Therefore you cannot say that apples are not food because some are poisoned, and you cannot say that humans are not animals and carnivores because they are moral agents.

The issue is how does God’s law work. The Decalogue tell us Do not kill. That does not mean do not kill game in order to eat. It means Do not kill other human beings, but of course we do.

On the other hand other creatures, non-human animals rarely kill their peers, not because they are moral to be sure, but because they are subject to God’s law, which says that a House divided against itself cannot survive and flourish. Mk 3:25

God’s moral law is an extension of God’s natural law. This is what it means to say that God has given humans Two Books of Self Revelation, the Bible and Nature.

(George Brooks) #17


Roger, you missed my point completely … and made a travesty out of logic… all at the same time.