Can you be a Christian without believing in the resurrection?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@mitchellmckain

No… you said this view is “negative” because the Christian view understands that we have self-destructive habits (called sin) opposed to life, and you called this “condemnation.”

Please explain what is the point of difference. You said, “Christianity in particular promises more life, even eternal life by overcoming our self-destructive tendencies which oppose life.” I agree. I used the word “condemnation” in respect of the beginning with sin; not in the sense of future. It only means that in the Christian (Paul, Augustine) view we inherit sin and are condemned unless saved. So where is the difference?

@mitchellmckain

Incorrect. The Christian view doesn’t accept the belief in reincarnation at all.

Two points have got jumbled up here.

1. You said, “The Eastern religions characterize life as a hopeless endless cycle of rebirth.” I was responding to this when I said that the idea of rebirth is not hopeless. Rather it is same as a spiral leading to God.
2. Your new point “The Christian view doesn’t accept the belief in reincarnation at all.” I understand this. I also understand that the Gnostics and even earlier Christianity before 300 CE was OK with rebirth. My reading of Job is that the “wonderous” things are rebirth. This can be discussed separately if you wish.
3. 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, 41
   This does not say when that “when” is. I read this a repeated renewal with every death until one reaches God.

@mitchellmckain

No you see yourself as “an integral part of God and merged into Him.” Pantheistic identity with God is not an authentic relationship.

This is not pantheism. There is no separation once you merge.

@mitchellmckain

Eternal life is an endless parent-child relationship where God gives and teaches us forever, and we becoming more like God is never ending. We remain finite and God remains infinite.

This is indeed a point of difference. We will have to define God to work this out.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

We will have to define God to work this out.

LOL! If you cannot understand Jesus, who can be “seen” in the New Testament, how can you define God, whom you cannot see?

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

I thought you had case closed. Terry. I am not into adversarial talk here. Happy to converse. But please open case for that to happen.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

I thought you had case closed

• Indeed, any debate over any aspect of Jesus is fruitless. Nothing either of us says will change the other person’s mind. So, the case is closed with regard to Jesus.
• However, when you say something about an undefined or un-agreed definition of God, you’ve opened a new case. The fact that you did not “open that case for, to, or with me” is itself a new issue between you and me.
  • Now, “we” will have to define whether there is a new difference between us or not and whether it is reconcilable or irreconcilable, if there is.
  • The fact that you think you can say elsewhere:

• Tells me that you have already defined “God” and just don’t have my agreement or your previous discussion partipant’s agreement yet. Lot of luck getting agreement from him, because you aren’t getting any from me:
• So, if “we” now know that you have already defined “God” and that I don’t agree with your definition, you and I can save a lot of time if we agree here and now that we’re not going to agree on any definition of “God”. On the other hand if you want to post soliloquies on the nature of “God”, knock yourself out, because I’m not playing that game with you. Case closed. End of discussion.

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

I understand this. I also understand that the Gnostics and even earlier Christianity before 300 CE was OK with rebirth.

Nota bene: Here there are two new issues - (1) Rebirth and (2) Your understanding that Christianity before 300 CE was okay with rebirth.

• Regarding #2: Your understanding. Not surprisingly, your understanding is incorrect. Did Origen teach reincarnation?. Read it and weep. Only detractors of Jesus and followers of “The Way”–ancient and current–continue to spew nonsense about what early believers believed.
• Regarding #1: Rebirth and reincarnation will remain hot topics till the earth is no more. Some people will actually be able to make money off talking about the topics. The fact is: If there were such “a thing” no one could ever prove that we living humans will be reborn or reincarnated only as improved and better or more knowledgeable beings.
  • When is the last time a cow told you that they were a human in a previous life.
  • Second: Claiming to be reincarnated is hardly a thing to be proud of.
  • You don’t have to be Hindu or Buddhist to believe in reincarnation. Othodox Jews teach that humans are reborn. [Just ask the next time you go to www.religiousforums.com.]

[Terry_Sampson]

So what else would you like to disagree about?

[riversea]

@Terry_Sampson

I begin in the Old Testament, with the words of the Israelite prophet, Isaiah, who lived before Jesus.

• Isaiah –in Hebrew, יְשַׁעְיָהוּ‎, Yəšaʿyāhū –means “God is Salvation”

@Terry_Sampson
I’m not joking in this writing. This is my serious writing.

TS: I begin in the Old Testament, with the words of the Israelite prophet, Isaiah, who lived before Jesus.* Isaiah –in Hebrew, יְשַׁעְיָהוּ‎, Yəšaʿyāhū –means “God is Salvation”

RS: Question 1. How come people need to add to what Jesus finished? Yesayahu means God is salvation. So this communication Jesus did is finished? Or is more need to be added to what Jesus did? I comprehend what Jesus did as communication.

[beaglelady]

@bharatjj

@beaglelady

The councils defined orthodoxy and addressed controversies that arose. So what do you think of that?

I think nothing of that. The Councils could be good or not good. The point is that I do not accept them blindly.

You don’t understand the Christological controversies the councils were trying to address

@bharatjj

I understand the souls to go into the purgatory after death before their next journey.

Only Catholics believe in Purgatory. You have little understanding of Christianity.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@bharatjj

Please explain what is the point of difference.

@bharatjj

This is indeed a point of difference.

Yep. Life is growth and learning. Thus eternal life is growth and learning without end. Christianity promises eternal life. You look for a cessation of life “merging with God.” I see as much in atheism and find its simpler version far more believable than all this transmigrating souls stuff which doesn’t agree with the evidence of how the world works. It looks like magic and fairy tales to me. Again atheism is more believable . True the understanding by many Christians is just as magical but I think much of this is from influence by other religions via the Gnostics and I don’t believe in any of that. God and a spiritual aspect to existence I believe in. Magic and nonphysical or transmigrating rational souls I do not believe in.

@bharatjj

I said that the idea of rebirth is not hopeless.

Whatever words you use, it still amounts to the same thing – something which is desirable to escape from. I do not see life as something to escape from, but to seek more of – not by repetition or immortality but in a never ending relationship to an infinite God.

@bharatjj

I also understand that the Gnostics and even earlier Christianity before 300 CE was OK with rebirth.

Yes other religions were constantly poisoning Judaism and early Christianity with false teachings, but God and the ecumenical councils have rejected that influence.

@bharatjj

• My reading of Job is that the “wonderous” things are rebirth. This can be discussed separately if you wish.
• (Matthew) 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed,
  This does not say when that “when” is. I read this a repeated renewal with every death until one reaches God.

People try to force all kinds of things into the Bible including justifications for racism and slavery. I am not interested.

[Terry_Sampson]

@beaglelady

Only Catholics believe in Purgatory. You have little understanding of Christianity.

Speaking of which, he has no understanding of purgatory.

[beaglelady]

@Terry_Sampson

Speaking of which, he has no understanding of purgatory.

Or anything else, for that matter!

[beaglelady]

@bharatjj

I am not into adversarial talk here.

Bollicks. You routinely attack the Christian faith. But here’s another question: how many sacraments are there?

[Terry_Sampson]

@riversea

I’m not joking in this writing. This is my serious writing.

• Let us make this easy for you, okay?
  • You don’t have to tell me or anyone in this forum that you are not joking in every message that you post. If you want to tell silly jokes, just say: “Here is a joke.” or “Here are some jokes.” And if you say something that is not a joke, but seems to be silly or doesn’t make sense, I will ask you: “Are you joking?” And all you need to do is say: “No, I am not joking. I am serious.” Will that make it easier for you?

@riversea

RS: Question 1. How come people need to add to what Jesus finished?

• Unfortunately, the word “people” usually means: “more than one human”. There are almost 8,000,000,000 people in the world, today. How many people do you think are adding to what Jesus finished? Which people are you talking about? Who told you about “people adding to what Jesus finished?”
• I believe I know where you read about Jesus saying that he finished something. What the New Testament tells us about the last things that Jesus said when he was on the cross are well-known among Christians. We call them “The seven last words of Jesus”, which is not exactly true. That is why I like to call them: "The seven last things that Jesus said (on the cross).
  • One thing that he said on the cross is recorded in John 19:25-27.
    • Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
  • Another thing Jesus said is recorded in Luke 23:43.
    • Two other men were crucified at the same time that Jesus was, one on his left and one on his right. One said to Jesus: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
  • A third thing he said is recorded in Luke 23:34:
    • "Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
  • A fourth thing he said were the words of the first verse of Psalm 22 which are: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken (= abandoned) me?” Jesus’ words on the cross" are recorded in Matthew 27:46:
    • "About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
  • A fifth thing Jesus said is recorded in John 19:28.
    • Jesus said, “I am thirsty.”
  • A sixth thing he said is recorded in John 19:30.
    • When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished."
  • And a seventh thing that Jesus said is recorded in Luke 23:46.
    • Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
• When Jesus said: “It is finished”, he was saying "I have fulfilled the promise that I was sent to fulfill. He redeemed the promise. In fact, after God the Father resurrected him in the tomb, he came out and met with others who had known him before his death.
• And he said that he would soon send what his Father had promised:
  • [Luke 24:49] "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
• Now @riversea, tell me: What do you think “people” added after Jesus said “It is finished”. Do you think that when Jesus said “It is finished” and then died on the cross, that he is forbidden to say or do anything more after his resurrection; because if that is what you think, then I must tell you that you are mistaken.
  • Jesus fulfilled his task and died. God resurrected him in the tomb; Jesus stayed on earth about 40 more days and then ascended and disappeared in a cloud. Before he left earth, he told his followers:
    • Luke 24:44-48. "He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’ Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.’ "
• @riversea, the stuff that you think people added, is the stuff that Jesus told them to do: "Call people of all nations, beginning in Jerusalem, to repent for the forgiveness of their sins." What you have not understood is that Jesus expanded the call to repent, from a call just to Jews to a call for all nations [i.e. everybody else in the world at that time to today] to repent." You wanted inclusion? There it is: Inclusion of everybody who hears the story of Jesus’ life on earth, his death, his resurrection, and his ascension.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@beaglelady

But here’s another question: how many sacraments are there?

Anywhere from 3 to 7 depending on the church denomination.

Sorry to spoil your test, but… this doesn’t sound like a Christian essential to me. Where is the word sacrament found in the Bible? Taken from the word… “mystery” perhaps? LOL

Are you testing if bharatjj has been to catechism class?

@beaglelady

You routinely attack the Christian faith.

At least… any part that cannot be bent and folded in to Hinduism or some other eastern religion.

[Terry_Sampson]

@riversea

So this communication Jesus did is finished?

Jesus’ work is finished. So the answer to your question is “Yes”.

@riversea

Or is more need to be added to what Jesus did?

• Yes. The more that is needed to be added to what Jesus did is “Spread the good news in his story and the call.”
  • The “good news is his story”, that is: the story that I have told you above.
  • “The call” is to anybody who does not know what he did on earth. Hear or read the story of what he did and what God our Father did to and through him, and then spread the good news yourself.

[beaglelady]

@mitchellmckain

Sorry to spoil your test, but… this doesn’t sound like a Christian essential to me.

It’s very important to Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and mainline Protestants. I take it that you don’t believe in sacraments.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

To me that is like asking if I believe in church buildings. …well they certainly do exist, I have participated in a couple and I don’t see anything wrong with them. But uh… am I supposed to put some kind of faith in them??? Am I supposed to believe they stop vampires, witches, divorces, or something? If I didn’t get married in a church does that mean you think my marriage (of 35 years) is not accepted by God? Or… does it mean I have to jump into the argument over which sacraments are real?

[beaglelady]

@mitchellmckain

To me that is like asking if I believe in church buildings. …well they certainly do exist, I have participated in a couple and I don’t see anything wrong with them. But uh… am I supposed to put some kind of faith in them??? Am I supposed to believe they stop vampires, witches, divorces, or something? If I didn’t get married in a church does that mean you think my marriage is not accepted by God?

Believe what you want. But sacraments are important to Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. Even some Evangelicals, such as Presbyterians.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@mitchellmckain

You look for a cessation of life “merging with God.”

Merging with God is eternal because God is eternal.

@mitchellmckain

it still amounts to the same thing – something which is desirable to escape from.

Not quite. I see transmigration as continuation of fulfillment.
Thanks for this conversation.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Christians believe that we retain our individual identities as children of our heavenly Father.

In fact, some kind of personal experience with him is normative for even being a Christian – it is not just subscribing to a creed or collection of doctrines, being a ‘mere professor’. The experience does not have to be external with objective physical facts, although many are and they’re cool, but maybe it should be objectively describable (not that every believer needs to).
 
Here is an example of the latter from someone (a fairly well known Christian author, Phil Yancey) who had been in Christian circles for a long time without being one himself, describing his conversion experience:

A few days later the university team gathers for a prayer meeting, as we do every Wednesday. We follow a consistent pattern: Joe prays, Craig prays, Chris prays, then all three pause politely, waiting for me. I never pray, and after a brief silence we open our eyes and return to our dorm rooms.

With the essay deadline looming, I join the team grudgingly for the requisite meeting. Joe prays, Craig prays, Chris prays, and they wait the usual few seconds. To everyone’s surprise—most of all my own—I begin to pray aloud.

“God…” I say, and the room crackles with tension. A door slams down the hall, interrupting me.

I start again. “God, here we are, supposed to be concerned about those ten thousand students at the university who are going to Hell. Well, you know that I don’t care if they all go to Hell, if there is one. I don’t care if I go to Hell.”

I might as well be invoking witchcraft or offering child sacrifices. Even so, these are my friends, and no one moves. My mouth goes dry. I swallow hard and continue. For some reason I start talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan, which one of my classes has just been studying. “We’re supposed to feel the same concern for university students as the Samaritan felt for the bloodied Jew lying in the ditch,” I pray. “I feel no such concern. I feel nothing.”

And then it happens. In the middle of my prayer, as I am admitting my lack of care for our designated targets of compassion, the parable comes to me in a new light. I have been visualizing the scene as I speak: a swarthy Middle Eastern man, dressed in robes and a turban, bending over a dirty, blood-stained form in a ditch. Without warning, those two figures now morph on the internal screen of my mind. The Samaritan takes on the face of Jesus. The Jew, pitiable victim of a highway robbery, also takes on another face—one I recognize with a start as my own.

In slow motion, I watch Jesus reach down with a moistened rag to clean my wounds and stanch the flow of blood. As he bends toward me, I see myself, the wounded victim of a crime, open my eyes and spit on him, full in the face. Just that. The image unnerves me—the apostate who doesn’t believe in visions or in biblical parables. I am rendered speechless. Abruptly, I stop praying, rise, and leave the room.

All that evening I brood over what took place. It wasn’t exactly a vision—more like a vivid daydream or an epiphany. Regardless, I can’t put the scene out of mind. In a single stroke my cockiness has been shattered. I have always found security in my outsider status, which at a Bible college means an outsider to belief. Now I have caught a new and humbling glimpse of myself. In my arrogance and mocking condescension, maybe I’m the neediest one of all.

A feeling of shame overwhelms me. Shame that my façade of self-control has been unmasked. And also shame that I might end up as one more cookie-cutter Christian on this campus.

…Something happened. This time God didn’t slam the door in my face. I was asking God to somehow, even though I didn’t want him to, give me the love of the Good Samaritan. Who loved irrationally, with no reason. Who loved a repulsive, filthy tramp. Then it hit me. I was the tramp and God was trying to help me. Every time he leaned over I spit in his face. What’s more, I wanted to remain a tramp. An intelligent, sophisticated tramp by choice.

…a gift of grace neither sought nor desired.
 

Phil Yancey, Where the Light Fell, p.244ff