You have to admit that it makes for great science fiction.
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- As far as I know, science has no proof of anything that was once human in this world, after its death in this world, other than it ain’t moving anymore and decays sooner or later.
- 1 Corinthians 15:12-19, in that book that you call “the Word of God”, says:
- But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied
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You overlook that we are very capable of deceiving ourselves.
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But what about the Qur’an and the Upanishads? No longer the word of God?
The last time “Bliss” came to me was when I smoked a joint many years ago and, sadly, it made me sicker than a dog. Before that, the only “Bliss” I ever had was when my wife and I met and married. It faded somewhat, shortly thereafter. Bliss typically incapacitates human beings.
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The point is that God is the author of salvation and it is His understanding of things which is required. I am certainly not saying that salvation is just by divine magic or that the teachings of religion have no value. God commands us to share the gospel. BUT it is NOT to make us the dispensers of salvation. We are but blind guides and seeking to do such a thing will misfire more often than not. God can use all kinds of things to help people – a butterfly and the words of a child as much as the teachings of religion. And sharing the gospel can be as much for our own benefit as for those who hear us.
Back to the main topic - “Can you be a Christian without believing in the resurrection?”
I explained why the answer is no. But while the topic wandered over into questions about salvation these are two different things. Christianity is a religion defined by a set of beliefs – and it is only natural that this word “Christianity” be defined by an ecumenical council, where Christians gather to decide what they mean when they call themselves by that label. But I think it is very wrong to equate this with salvation. I cannot believe being Christian is either necessary or sufficient for salvation. I will certainly not limit God in THAT way.
Public message in English
- Fine; but just remember: I gave you a choice.
- Before I address some things you asked me, I’d like to ask you:
- Do you have difficulty understanding my messages to other people or to you? I ask because, I posted this message to DOL:
- And later you told him:
*
- Read my message to DOL again: I didn’t tell you or Bharat that I wanted either of you to meet DOL; I invited you two to read some handouts that he had posted, which I thought you two might find useful.
- And later you told him:
- While I have your attention, I ask you: ***Have you ever heard of "the Law (or Principle) of Non-Contradiction? I ask because you like to tell jokes and when you say things that violate “the Law”, I’m not sure whether you are being irrational or you’re just joking.
- Do you have difficulty understanding my messages to other people or to you? I ask because, I posted this message to DOL:
- Questions that you have asked me in this thread:
- ["riversea, post:527]: What happens to blood when dying on a cross?
- ["riversea, post:527]: Scientifically how does that feel to die on a cross?
- ["riversea, post:527]: Were the nails through lower arms wrists?
- ["riversea, post:582]: Do you believe people goes to hell, if they don’t accept Jesus to save them?
- ["riversea, post:582]: So how is this list of debt and Jesus is a banker, affect that I understand God as true currency light.
- Terry’s answers:
- It would usually drip. Eventually, in a little while, it “coagulates”, i.e. it dries up.
Recommended video: CSI Jerusalem: A Physician Looks at the Crucifixion - Scientifically? I wouldn’t know, I’ve never been crucified; however the Physician in the Youtube video offers a medical opinion.
- I and a lot of other people agree that nails were driven through Jesus’ wrists, for the same reason that you mention: the full weight of the body would probably have pulled Jesus’ hands free.
- Scientifically, The Shroud of Turin is very realistic representation of what Jesus may have undergone prior to and during his crucifixion.
- Terry’s Note: A lot of people–some Christian, many not–say that the image on the Shroud is NOT Jesus. IMO, it doesn’t matter, because for me the Shroud is “a banner”, i.e. like a flag, that sums up the New Testament story of what happened to Jesus prior to, during, and after his crucifixion. You don’t have to believe the Shroud is the linen cloth that wrapped around Jesus in order to be a follower of Jesus, and if you do believe the Shroud actually wrapped around Jesus, believing that it is won’t get you into heaven. But if I had a copy of it, I sure would wave it with joy on Easter.
- The Shroud of Turin has been used to make a model of what the person in its image looks like: See: Shroud of Turin Used to Create 3D Copy of Jesus
- Scientifically, The Shroud of Turin is very realistic representation of what Jesus may have undergone prior to and during his crucifixion.
- No, I do not believe people will go to hell, if they don’t accept Jesus to save them? But I do believe that people who are in hell on earth won’t get out if they don’t believe Jesus has something to offer to them.
- Your characterization of Jesus as “a banker” proves that you have a very confused understanding of what “a Redeemer” is and does.
- I listed the following:
A redeemer is one who redeems something.
In American English, “to redeem” is a transitive verb which means:- to buy back
- to get back; recover, as by paying a fee
- to pay off (a mortgage or note)
- to convert paper money into gold or silver coin or bullion
- to convert stocks, bonds, etc. into cash
- to turn in trading stamps or coupons for a prize, premium, discount, etc.
- to set free by paying a ransom
- to deliver from sin and its penalties, as by a sacrifice made for the sinner
- to fulfill a promise or pledge
- to make amends or atone for
- to restore oneself to favor by making amends
- to make worthwhile; justify
- I listed the following:
- For some reason, you didn’t make sense of the information that I gave you. Perhaps it is my fault: I didn’t point you to the key features of a redeemer and the act of redemption. But I thought you get all your knowledge from the Holy Spirit, and I figured the Holy Spirit would show you how to make sense of the words that you read. Guess not, eh?
* The key feature of a redeemer is that he or she fulfills a promise that he or she has made.
* No promise; no redemption or redeemer.
* Promise, but no redemption or redeemer = An unfulfilled promise, i.e. a promise that the promise-maker didn’t keep.
* The promise doesn’t have to involve money. For example: When my wife and I married, we made promises to each other to love each other until one of us dies. When one of us dies, the survivor is the one who decides whether the one who died kept (i.e. fulfilled) his or her promise. If my wife died tonight, there is no doubt in my mind that she fulfilled her promise to me. We may not have worshipped the ground that we each stood on, but I can honestly say: My wife is the best wife, I’ve had in this world, and I don’t wish that I had a different wife.
- It would usually drip. Eventually, in a little while, it “coagulates”, i.e. it dries up.
- Jesus of Nazareth kept his promise while he was in this world, and because he did, I am Terry Sampson, not John Sterling Mayfield, and I am grateful to him, and him alone, for my wife and all that I now have.
- Redeeming is all about making promises and fulfilling them. Period.
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Miscommunication here. Your question was which Ecumenical Councils I accepted. The answer is “none.” I accept as truth (unless proven otherwise, in which case I hold judgment) only the inspired scriptures, in this case OT and NT.
Agree. How do we know when we are deceiving ourselves?
I have a problem. Once we accept some parts of an Inspired Text as true and others as false; then dispute arises which parts are which. That cannot be resolved. Further, my objective is to build mutual understanding (while maintaining diversity). This approach does not work for me.
My solution is to reinterpret the Texts so as to become consistent with science and each other–without negating any part. I would suspend judgment and study me where we face an irresolvable problem.
Perhaps the resurrection was psychic.
My experience is VERY different. My Bliss has made me increasingly ever active. Yes indeed, the larger Hindu tradition incapacitates. But that is not me.
Please post again with a note of specific pages/passages and why would you like me to read them (since I have limitations of time)
I agree about Jesus. I only find that there are other methods of attaining Bliss. I don’t like “saved.”
Clarification. I am speaking of Resurrected Jesus eating. Evidence has its limitations. I don’t know enough of this. But I had a visitor who could materialize a piece of cardamom. He explained that the cardamom was lying at a specific place in his home. He could teleport it. I don’t know if he hypnotized me or conned me. But I would not like to dismiss him altogether.
I did some research and found this on Quora:
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I assume you’re referring to moving objects - if you’re referring to moving people- like closing my eyes and transporting myself to China- that would be literally impossible for anyone . That would have to be a scientific development if at all.
Moving objects is not moving objects. It is manipulating the energy around those objects and the energy manipulates the objects and gets them to move. Learning how to do that , is yes, a cognitive ability - not a psychic ability. I believe anyone with training could do it.
For example bending spoons. I took a bending spoon class. Yes it was in a school for mutants - haha( inside joke ) it was a school for psychics and mediums. At a psychic compound. Anyways, I took the class with my children actually. They bent spoons in class.
What you have to do that is the most challenging part I suppose is concentrate your mental thought. You have to be able to build up energy, and then you have to move that energy. That takes great concentration. . Although some old psychics in that class- could do it effortlessly… Im not sure if you’ve ever met any psychics but they are so evolved , some of them, that it seems at first that they are mentally challenged , or suffering from dementia. When reality is , their thoughts and hearts are so pure and so full of love that they appear to be simple.
For a “ normal” person - bending a spoon would take lots and lots of concentrated practice … hours and hours.
Honestly the first time I did it ,I sort of blacked out for a second.
Transportation usually is done actually by spirits of the dead. They like to move objects around. In psychic circles we actually call it transportation. A habit of spirits …
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Basically what it’s about is a group of 6-7 college kids who were interested in stuff like ESP decided to get together to perform an experiment…
The experiment lasted for several weeks.
They started by creating a completely fictional character (philip). They totally developed every aspect of philip’s fictitious, imaginary life.
Talk about a backstory! They knew when and where this make-believe guy was born, where he went to school, what he did on prom night– the idea was to create a completely imaginary person and see if their thoughts and beliefs could eventually make him real.
Why would somebody do that? They were working off the theory that a thought form, if properly constructed and energized could be made to manifest here in the physical world/ earth plane.
So after creating this fictitious person, they purposefully started making themselves believe he was real. They wanted to convince themselves he was an absolutely real, living person and– long story made shorter they accomplished this.
They approached it as if he was a spirit, and tried every day for weeks to make contact. Hours and hours of working together as a group to make contact with philip…
Eventually they did. By the end of it they were able to get philip to successfully perform experiments for them such as turning lights on and off, and were even able to start two-way communications with it!
The communications were via lights on a talking board he was able to light up, or knocks on the table or wall (1 knock for yes/ 2 for no that sort of thing).
So yeah– these guys all thought that psychic powers are real and this was what they chose to do, to try and prove it to the world.
So, perhaps Jesus teleported away the fish and honey.
To me it this seems to say that there are other ways than Jesus.
challenge writing for me. yes I’m glad this is public.
My error: I see it now as you explain. If you want me to, I can delete it. Let me know ok. I will analyze why I misunderstood
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Great Handouts! Just the kind that @riversea and @bharatjj ought to see and read!
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Oh and I hope soon you can meet @bharatjj too as @Terry_Sampson wanted you to meet Bharat too
Why was I thinking you wanted us to meet Dol? Now I’ll analyze how I misunderstood. I’ll like to understand that too? No this isn’t a joke., this is concerning. I wasn’t aware 'till you shown it to me.
I thought people were enjoying jokes that I shared from time to time. But I wasn’t aware that people can’t tell when I’m joking or not joking 'till now. It does help seeing examples so I can take a closer look to improve on. you ask me if i ever heard of "the Law (or Principle) of Non-Contradiction? no I hadn’t., however it might of been those words that was shared, and I had forgotten., I’ll need to look up non-contradiction, i’m not sure what principle is.,
basically to keep it easy for me I have zero laws with God., so there for I can be me when I go to God., no need to perform., I can relax rest and be me, and God and I can have a conversation., God is a counselor too., a therapist. you were saying i’m violating laws., can you give me examples?
I saw a lot of money exchange. I was analyzing banking Jesus with currency unconditional love light, but I only wrote light. That wasn’t a joke, it was my analyzing your example of money Jesus ‘add subtract’ and your example of Jesus = zero. so God can raise us when physical body dies. You were using banking system of money to show that. However, I asked how does that affect light currency, I should of also included unconditional love when I wrote light. I think you were using banking system to show salvation through words redeem redemption. I analyze this and entwine Jesus as the banker, I was writing using examples that you used and asking how does that affect light currency?
I’ll make sure when I write in future, to state when I’m joking and when I’m not joking. I think that will help not confuse people.
me writing what i think some christians goes through, this isn’t a joke.
Maybe some Christians feels responsible to add to what Jesus did already. And this feeling of responsibility causes this need to make sure people are saved. This writing isn’t a joke ok., I’m seeing if I can write the tone.
Picture someone who has a dream thinks their mother will die in a plane crash
that person wake up from their dream all worried as they know their mother is getting on a plane next Wednesday, what would the conversation be like for this person and their mother? Is this what it feels like for a Christian?
I wonder this and then next question., by me being here, maybe that’s causing this pain for you and others., please understand this isn’t a joke., I’m thinking this through.
See how I improved already, I’m making sure to show please know this isn’t a joke. just in case if it appears as a joke. but i’m not joking.
I don’t want to cause anyone pain.
It must be extremely difficult for Christians because they’re in such pain and do I want this pain for me too, if I believe like you do., that there’s people not included?,
this is the strangest type of spirituality., its like Jesus went to the cross so others has to finish what Jesus accomplished., I wonder what Jesus would had thought as he went through all of that., knowing all those people in such pain because these people think they fail to save others.
It seems like this, Jesus rose so others got to make others see that Jesus rose, and if they fail at it, then these people will blame themselves for not able to do well at showing others that Jesus rose., this is what happens when people think its relying on their abilities., but if Jesus finish it all, why is there any needs for people to add to it?
Challenge writing for me: No need for abilities. no need for any abilities to accept; so no one can boast how well they accepted Jesus., as there’s no condemnation in Christ.
I’ll write more about this because challenge to write for me, making sure this is understood.
No need for abilities from anyone. So when Jesus finish what he communicated - why is it people need to add to what Jesus finish through their abilities? Abilities only causes boasting condemnation. Look how well I accepted Jesus as my savior., look at those people who didn’t accept Jesus as their savior., we need to save those people., oh look at them how they don’t accept., look how they reject., look at us how well we did at accepting. That’s boasting condemnation.
What about Christians who worried they fail at accepting Jesus as their savior? Do they try a overly acceptance then, as if some area they feel isn’t good enough with accepting?
I’ll see if I can say it, and no this isn’t a joke., the reason why I write its not rely on our abilities so no one can boast., this is about approval area, people rely on their abilities for approval from God., christians rely on their accepting abilities for approval from God., I don’t rely on my abilities for approval from God.
it only relies on Holy Spirit ability already.
Some where in this thread it claims Abraham and someone else already saved from what Jesus did., because @bharatjj was asking what about them?
This is what I was saying, communication is for our deeper understanding. However all communication has already been done. Because of true time., not time of this earth.
however I also added inclusion., meaning what was done for one is done for all and no need for any abilities so no one can boast. There is no condemnation in Christ
it doesn’t rely on our abilities to believe to doubt, to accept, to not accept., to save others to not save others, to learn, to not learn. No I never learn to aim for salvation, I wasn’t learning my way to there.
I have a hard time stop learning. I’m the what is type of person.
Now this is a long message that I spent is it hours or hour,
I did write somewhere, inclusion., so if a christian claims Jesus rose then I claim for all, because inclusion.
if I’m around a Jew., how the Jew has religion, i’ll think its inclusion, we’re all chosen people because its inclusion
Hindu reincarnation inclusion., we’re all one in this. we all get reincarnated., meaning we’re not stuck permanently, so all is included. i want to add more about christian, included, so no stuck in hell permanent. see i see inclusion in christian belief, so if around christian ok i’ll use christian words while claim for all. cause inclusion., no stuck
Muslims I still not sure how they believe of yet, which is my fault. what do they believe, you know what I don’t know what they believe?
Ok @bharatjj was saying the muslims thinks Jesus didn’t get crucified, Muslims thinks jesus is a prophet.
there’s allah light in the quran., oh and mohammad is a prophet. ok so to have inclusion in muslim beliefs I need more info on muslims. so can write about that. wait I could write, we’re all included in allah light. There that’s what i can write abotu inclusion in the muslim religion. I actually understand about allah light cause I’ve seen light. then there’s that verse of allah light., oh i learn recently in this forum, taht christians says allah from other countries., oh and i agree Brahman, allah, yhwh is same God. so if thinking brahman i could think inclusion in brahman. but the point is to understand them and include so if i’m around that person i’ll go to their religion and think include for all.
so christians I have inclusions in their beliefs., I hope this makes sense what i’m saying.
@Terry_Sampson this is a long response, and yes i do want this public so all can learn., even learn from my flaws
@Terry_Sampson I delete that message.
Oh and I hope soon you can meet @bharatjj too as @Terry_Sampson wanted you to meet Bharat too
and replace message with I allow Holy Spirit teach me
so if dol sees that message. dol will read, I allow Holy spirit teach me
I’m physically tired after 5 hours of re-editing this message here. I’m sorry for any of my mistakes in our communication.
Yeah and I saw this magician make a girl in a box disappear. Do you think he teleported her away?
Why? Jesus was there in the beginning, creating the world.
Jesus is God. You think there are other ways to salvation than God?
That has a bit to do with epistemology and having something external to yourself as a trustworthy reference, not just making stuff up as you go along.
You don’t think humankind needs to be saved. Huh.
?? Here’s another problem: Your objective does not build mutual understanding in you AND me equally and simultaneously. I’m pretty sure that we are as far apart today as we were at the beginning of your appearance in this forum if not further apart. The solution for me is easy: to ignore you. Until I do, anything I say in this thread or any other thread serves no other purpose than to remind you that we don’t agree on much, if anything.
Jews reject, almost completely if not completely, Christian and Muslim reinterpretation of the Tanakh, in whole or in part. Within Judaism, disagreement over textual interpretation is common, even between two Orthodox rabbis. Muslims reject Jewish and Christian re-interpretations of the Qur’an, assume only one version of the Qur’an, in Arabic, is true, and–I suspect–argue amongst themselves over the correct interpretation. Christians likewise. You, a self-acknowledged Hindu may chatter as much and long as you please, but the fruit of your efforts will be meager. Calling yourself a Jew, Muslim, and Christian, as well as a Hindu, does not add anything new or credibility to your arguments. Besides the Bahai’i are way ahead of you.
Collins Dictionary says:
So, it looks to me like your version of the resurrection may or may not add anything to Paul’s version or, IMO, be false or misleading if you assume that what is “spiritual” is not physical. But that’s the least problematic thing in your “smoke and mirrors” effete theorizing. By playing ‘fast and loose’ with the word “death”, you concede the possibility that a dead Jesus was crucified without attracting the notice of the Roman soldiers ordered to crucify Jesus, meanwhile allowing his ghost to wander on earth, surprising former companions, until some 40 days later, it “rises into the air” and evaporates in a cloud. And then you ask, “So, if Jesus’ resurrected body ascended into heaven, where is it now?”
- Which body? His body body or his non-body body? His physical body or his non-physical body? His natural body or his un-natural body? LOL! You’re chasing your own tail, and unable to catch it, want others to believe that you have given deep thought to subject and reconciled Paul and science, the Qur’an and the New Testament. But all you’ve done is ignore Paul’s words:
1 Corinthians 15:44: “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body”
- A “natural” body and a “spiritual” body are distinct and different possibilities. The natural body is flesh and blood and it begins decaying at death. A spiritual body is a body, too, but it is immortal to the extent that it exists at all. Both bodies are physical. You think a “psychic body” is not physical. And I say: “That’s where you are mistaken.”
I don’t expect you to understand why, but I think that’s the funniest thing you’ve said in this whole thread.
Excellent! You have opinions. So do I. And those opinions are irreconcilably different. Case closed. End of discussion, although my guess is that you won’t agree to that either.
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@bharatjj good point you have there. I think I need to stop worrying about them. and Be in Bliss with God.
- Forget the word “Principle”. “Law” and “Principle” are possible synonyms, but synonyms appear to confuse you. So, just focus on the words: “the law of Non-Contradiction”.
- Focus!
I did not say you are violating “laws”, I just mentioned one law: “The Law of Non-Contradiction”. - "In order for something to be contradictory, it must violate the law of non-contradiction . This law states that “A” cannot be both “A” (what it is) and “not-A” (what it is not) at the same time and in the same relationship. In other words, you contradict yourself when you affirm and deny the same statement.
- For example, if I say that the moon is made entirely of cheese but then also say that the moon is not made entirely of cheese, I have contradicted myself.
- I ask you if it is snowing where you’re at, right now, or not snowing where you’re at right now. And you say: “Yes”. The answer “Yes” would violate the Law of Non-Contradiction. It cannot be snowing AND not snowing where you’re at right now. Either it is snowing or it is not snowing where you are at.
- Suppose you want to confuse me and you say “Yes, it is snowing and not snowing where I am at.” and I ask you to explain your contradictory answer. And then you explain it by saying that it is not snowing in the room where you are at, but it is snowing outside of the building that you are in. Then I would say: “Foul! Inside of the room that you are in is one place. Outside the building that you are in is a very different kind of place.”
- I see that too much information confuses you, so I will simplify my answer. Forget everything in the list that I gave you except this:
- To be a redeemer, a person must fulfill a promise. Nothing more and nothing less.
- If a person does not fulfill a promise, then that person is not a redeemer.
- Jesus fulfilled a promise and was crucified for doing that. Contrary to any “hocus-pocus”, that anyone else tells you: Jesus really died as a result of that crucifixion. Because he fulfilled a promise, he was a redeemer. The consequences of his redemptive death continue to this day, everywhere his death and resurrection are proclaimed. Money/currency/bank are unimportant and distracting ideas. Jesus’ continues to redeem when and where the story of his life is told. The fact that you do not believe the story does not make the story false. It just means that you’re not going to get any benefit out of his story. That’s not his fault.
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Agree to your suggestion.
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On this perspective, I agree. That is, Jesus is God, not body.