It’s not without reason that Jesus said in the parable,
“…they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”
Luke 16:21
Even if it were witnessed firsthand – and people still ask for signs and wonders.
However… I find myself more in agreement with the defender of modern miracles in the video because I see no reason to believe that the miracles of Jesus and in the Bible were any different than modern miracles. Not only that, but frankly I cannot maintain a belief in the Bible any other way. Either the Bible is about reality as we experience it or it is a total fantasy of another world, and trying to make the accounts of Jesus different than our experiences today would put the Bible into the latter category for me.
I keep going back to @jpm’s example earlier:
" A miracle was declared. But, it is well known that 20% or so of that type of tumor has spontaneous regression."
How far should we trust someone when they say that there is no scientific explanation?
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That is an example of the events being consistent with science. And frankly I see everything in the Bible and our experiences as being consistent with science.
That’s what they are talking about. I thought it interesting the documentation was largely agreed upon, but psychosomatic was the only explanation from the skeptic of why the condition changed. Even the possibility of the woman’s blindness being caused by staring into the sun does not explain her being able to see again. So pyschosomatic was again put forward.
The skeptic’s admission of not knowing the complexities of mind and matter was a curious tell. As if any explanation is acceptable, as long as it isn’t God entering our apparently closed system.
It’s when the medical documentation cannot be explained by naturalistic mechanisms that a miracle can be reasonably claimed.
I’m very thankful for modern medicine and I’m glad that it is biblically grounded in Paul’s advice for Timothy to not pray for his condition, but to seek a practical or predictable treatment.
What about people who prayed for a miracle and didnt receive anything? Does God have favourites?
You guys are all over the place
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So much to comment on. I wish there were formal case studies done in the cases sited to see what treating physicians found and had to say, as the cases as presented in the stories really are lacking in detail and objective findings. The case of blindness had a little more detail in the article I found, but it too was really not conforming to what a case report would say. The case of the intestinal blockage in some respects seems more impressive as to being a supernatural healing event, but I could not find adequate details to fully support that. You can look him up as well and read a bit more of the story here: Did God heal Chris Gunderson From An Incurable Intestinal Disease? – Bishop's Encyclopedia of Religion, Society and Philosophy
And here is a story regarding the man crushed by the semi who prayed for him when healed: https://www.familytoday.com/family/this-man-miraculously-lived-after-being-crushed-by-a-10000-lb-truck/
Of note in his case, his healing occurred after 2 months in the hospital and 5 surgery’s initially, and total of 9 months of hospitalizations and surgeries. I suspect those surgeries and hospital treatments had a little to do with his recovery as well, and as they said in the video, it depends on how you define miracles, as the technology and skill of his caregivers can be considered miraculous as well.
I thought the video did a pretty good job of presenting things, but of course did so from a lay perspective, without enough details or supporting evidence to really allow much of an opinion from a medical perspective.
In the case of intestinal problem, I suspect follow up testing was done concerning his intestinal motility, and details are scant regarding biopsies etc.
I think there is a fine line between being a skeptic and being cynic. I probably wander over that line at times. Being a skeptic I feel is good and even supported Biblically, and I wish we had a little more discernment and skepticism in the church. Being cynical, not so much.
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Can anyone really say why God answers some prayers and others he doesn’t? Yes God has favorites, but the wonderful irony is it’s impossible to want to be a favorite and not be.
Yet Christians assume God to be judge because he said so,while empirical evidence show otherwise.Ok i guess makes sense
Joshua Brown’s testimony of his personal healing and experience with others being healed felt sincere to me. Part of finding his testimony truthful is being able to identify with it at a personal level. And I think him and Keener are showing the capacity to be skeptical. The fact that May continued to claim a pyschosomatic explanation shows me they understand the work they are doing.
And Keener accusing May with being an unreliable witness was a very serious charge. I do not think Keener would say that if he couldn’t back it up.
Then again, I got caught saying some really nice stuff about Ravi before that whole mess broke loose 
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i agree with the comment that the term psychosomatic was thrown around too much. i think there is a lot of room for other explanations, including mis-diagnosis, spontaneous resolution, placebo effects, just plain lack of knowledge about some disease states. One thing that impresses me is how biology is seldom simple and straightforward, There are some syndromes or diseases once thought to be relatively straightforward that we now find may be essentially several totally different diseases that present the same way. Actually, even in the blindness case, I see that while one form is genetic, there are several other forms with different etiologies.
Quantum SEUs that coincide with proximal intercessory prayer would be as cynical as it gets… or maybe it wouldn’t…
Cynical would be believing the spontaneous resolution would have occurred without prayer in these particular cases.
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I watched this a while ago. Although I suspect genuine healings are few and far between, Im nt going to deny they happen. Peter May’s criteria for genuine healing would ironically fail Jesus! And he completely ignores the testimony of medical doctors, such as the late John White. The pursuit of truth is important, but dont let your own prejudices get in the way.
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When you think about it, contrary to nature miracles are child’s play for God, it’s how he brings about answers to prayer through the determinations of other people that really amazes me.
I have no prejudices whatsoever. Apart from all the usual Whac-A-Mole tendencies. But they do not apply here. If a true miracle of healing occurred it would break the statistical surface, it would be the lead story on the BBC, and it would have to be accepted. There could no doubt about it. Richard Dawkins would proclaim it. As would Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. If Christopher Hitchens were resurrected to investigate it, that would be the icing on the cake. Although difficult to prove of course.
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Klax, did you see my comment?
Which one Mike? You’re hidden as a rule. Sorry, can’t see it. Can you edit it to that question?
While I don’t read everyone, and some people I’m more inclined to skim past than others, it feels unforgivable to hide comments in a discussion forum, especially in a thread the person you are ignoring started.
You are entitled to your own way, but removing people from the discussion is something I can’t understand.
So what did you say? I have my reasons, your response is one of them, you are in very good company.