Funny, it goes back to the comment I thought was unimportant.
God doing contrary to nature miracles is child’s play compared to how he answers prayer using the choices of other people. That’s the real wonder.
Have you heard the story of the Turkish translator?
That isnt how the world works. They will always come up with any excuse not to believe. Just as many did in Jesus’ day - people, for the most part, viewed Him as a magician. Not real. Nothing has changed.
Nonsense. A miracle speaks for itself. As it did then. The problem with then was superstition, magical thinking. Lack of rationalism. Jesus’ thousand days of miracles were attributed to Satan. Not fakery. Not modern magic. The problem with now is also superstition. Not rationality. If a miracle occurred no rational person could deny it. Rationality, objectivity, disinterest, science, statistics guarantee the detection of miracles if they were to occur. They don’t.
Sure they can. Sometimes I find myself doubting the miracles in my life. But I’m pretty sure my skepticism doesn’t look like yours.
A spontaneous healing is a reasonable belief. It’s harder to maintain it isn’t a miracle when it occurs in perfect coincidence with prayer and with the experience of power, but I wouldn’t put it past anyone.
Everybody prays all the time. Superstition is normal still. Miracles aren’t. The dead don’t rise. The eyeless don’t see. Except by implants. Mutilated lepers aren’t made whole. The terminally deranged aren’t made sane. They don’t need coincidental prayer. They just need to happen. Science would easily detect them.
Then there are certain multiple lottery wins that break the statistical surface, among them George Müeller’s. Of course miracles are impossible, if your worldview precludes them, even if someone is raised from the dead right next to you. “There is something I don’t understand, but it wasn’t a miracle.” Or, “There is something I don’t understand, but IT WASN’T A MIRACLE!"
And by the way, I fully endorse the rituals of the Church, as faithful to the early Church as possible. Despite having no unnatural effect since the Apostolic Age at least.
I’ve heard more stories than you can shake a stick at. We gorged on them in my cult. Brilliant, spine tingling stuff some of it. Nearly as scary as my beloved grandmother. To me as a young man.
If God wants to do a miracle, I’m not stopping Him. And science would bow the knee.
So you dont believe Jesus healed anyone, and therefore how he is portrayed in the Gospels, both in word and deed, is completely false?
What? Why do you ask such questions? Where does that come from?
Because I said that real, medically, statistically, thermodynamically impossible miracles don’t occur? As in no longer. That fact does not preclude Jesus.
It’s when you experience it firsthand that your naturalism starts to get a little wobbly
I’m 68. I’ve had several lifetimes of experience. Including one as a fundamentalist. So I’ve had at least as much firsthand experience as you that I interpreted as miraculous. I have one that still gives me pause. 5 minutes out of thirty six million. Surrounded by many descending answers to prayer.
Your interpretation now feels more like a way to settle past accounts. On some days I suppose you could still see it the other way.
Then again, I’d bet you never really felt like you were alone in the world, to then have God answer your prayer that you are not.
When you think about it, solipsism could be the purest form of naturalism.
Not to me. No I couldn’t. No I didn’t. Not what? I wouldn’t know.
This is the only thing I didn’t understand. Would you mind explaining it a little more?
Alone in the world is what he missed.
That not.
So, show me a miracle and I will have to believe. Just as all scientists do when Stephen Baxter is the focus of one in the brilliant The Second Coming (Part 1) - YouTube 28:00 - 36:00. It moves me to tears every time.
Let me know when you’ve got one.
Oh… that you are not alone.
Once you consider the possibility, and you really think about it, the coincidences and lapses in other people’s reason can become terribly overwhelming.
This little detour was about what we have experienced, and while I’m not in a position to judge your experience, I certainly am with respect to my own.
I also suppose that even if you saw a miracle, you wouldn’t be able to believe it, because it would mean other people didn’t see it and that would be too close to the neighborhood of damnationist theology.
Edit: This morning I heard about the revival at Asbury and I am excited to say the least. What a tremendous move of God’s Spirit! The signs are just lovely!
“And anyone who has spent time in Hughes Auditorium over the past few days can testify that this promised Comforter is present and powerful. I cannot analyze—or even adequately describe—all that is happening, but there is no doubt in my mind that God is present and active.”
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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