No, it wouldnât be a real history, it would still be a false history. I donât even know what manipulating the time realm means. Did you make that up?
Do you think itâs OK to create fake antiques?
I think we were composing our answers at the same time!
YEC response clash!
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Would you consider taking an online course on evolution? You would find it very instructive and enjoyable.
The reason you value the history of an object, so if that history was lied about, of course you would be upset. Like a 100 year old wine, it taste better with time. But what if someone found a way to age the wine faster so that it had 100 year old wine taste, and this wine was cheaper than ârealâ 100 year old wine, would you care?
Like manufactured diamonds now a days, it is really difficult to tell them apart even under a microscope. Is that manufactured diamond a lie or a deceit? I am aware that though the manufacturer wasnât able to speed up time, they were able to create diamonds using extreme heat and pressure which emulates that passing of time to give you a diamond.
But my theory is the opposite of your analogy. God is giving you a paper that says this antique earth is ~6000 years old (for arguments sake) but this antique has value to you of 4.5 million years old.
I donât know who Mike is.
That is a real history, there really was a forest fire, the tree did experience those growing conditions. But to the man outside of the machine (God outside of time) it happened in 1 day, inside the machine this tree did go through 80 years of life and growth which gave it rings, and roots and scars and history, real history.
I donât think you are following my theory. History is still occurring, we measure it, and know what occurred. I am simply saying that our measuring stick of time is different that what God uses.
Would you agree that God is outside of time? If not, than I think this debate is moot, much like a Christian trying to explain that Good is good. When they ask why kids die or bad things happen. They are arguing outside factors to bring it inside. If God is just is a truth, then we must look to understand or guestimate why bad things happen, or now know and have faith in His justice. But they donât see God as just, and try to prove He isnât by the things He does or the things we observe. So you will never convince them, only God can reveal to them if they are seeking the truth.
Not saying I have the truth with YEC, donât confuse thatâŚJust an analogy to ask if you donât believe God is outside of time, then you wonât believe in this theory, so it is moot
.[quote=âBill_II, post:12, topic:36495â]
Donât get your point as it would be a tree with or without tree rings. They are not needed by the tree just by the people that are looking to find out the history of the tree.
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No it wouldnât be a 100â tree without its rings. The rings is the treeâs history, it was a small sapling, then a âlayerâ grew and another layer, and that gave it its thickness, and ability to be 100â tree. It isnât a 100â tree without rings. So I am saying just like God canât make a square a circle or make parallel lines intersect, He couldnât make a tree without ringsâŚI mean He couldâŚbut then it wouldnât be a tree. Just like he could change a square into a circle, but it wouldnât be definition be a square anymore. The very thing that makes this 100â tree a tree, is the rings and the roots. If a tree got that high, without rings, that would be a new species, that isnât how trees grow in our world.
[quote=âBill_II, post:12, topic:36495â]
Without a history so there is no problem.
[/quote] Why do you think these fish donât have a history? How old would this fish be if you were to cut it open and measure it? Science would measure age based of known size muscle strength (like trees, start small and grow in layers, muscles start small and tear and rebuild) Surely an scientist would have said these fish measure to be a year old right?
Not sure who that is either. I just saw a video on youtube from Dr. Collins that brought me ot biologos. I have no education in creationism and have tried to think for myself what I read, not what the church tells me. I know it is an accurate measurement, I am agreeing 100% with you there. I never said EC or OEC is wrong. I said I believe it to be rightâŚI just also believe YEC to be right also. Much like a person on earth (relative to the sun) is moving 23000mph or is still (relative to their position on earth)âŚis also both right, and for two of you to say still or 23,000mph, I would not say that either of you are being decietful.
What if you walked in on two hour glasses. But instead of an hourglass, lets say it was a big 13.7 billion year glass⌠One was almost top empty, leading you to measure almost ~13.7 billion years elapsed, and the other appeared completely full, leading you to âmeasureâ it just started 6000 years ago. If that other one could have been going for 13.7 billion years, but it was in space the whole time, so the sand never fell, it was only when brought to earth and gravity pulled the sand through.
That again is attempting to explain relativity of time because of how we measure it. We know gravity to be constant so and hour glass is accurate, but what if gravity wasnât an earth constant, rather a space constant? I am suggesting that the constant of time that we use today, was manipulated during the creation process. So that as we measure today, 13.7 billion years is correctâŚBut so is ~6000 years.
No deception in mind there, God just felt like having the mountains as we know it already here when we showed up (give or take a few 100 feet for the plates which are still moving at a normal rate now). God wanted us to have mountains, so when He created the earth in 1 day He rammed some plates into each other and watch them build up. Then when the mountains formed, He slowed time down to how we know it today. We are both believing in the EC or OEC theory, no need to convince me of that. You just donât believe in the literal 6 day creation story, where as I do.
As I said above, real forest fire, real age gaps as trees fell, rocks pushed into them, scars were created, trees fossilized, new trees came, 4 million years worth of tree history occurred (real history, not fake history) in a few days.
But yes, I made up time realm lol. I made up this entire theory. I am not as educated as you probably, and I probably have a lower IQ, so it is difficult for me to get across the concept of relativity and time and I used a word like âtime realmâ to represent a realm we are in, and that God is not confined to.
To be honest, I probably wouldnât if it was evolution as random darwinism, possibly if it was evolutionary creationism. I have taken a course on creation at LU. I donât think they believe in macro-evolution, or the big bang either. I grew up believing in YEC because the Bible and church says so. But as I grew up, I realized it isnât so âbinaryâ as Mervin says and began to have an open mind. I took that class because I had to to get my degree, and through military, my schooling was free there. Though I wasnât a huge fan of the "shove it down your throatâ method them seemed to use. I did like the apologetic approach that we were blessed with a brain and logic to understand things and though God is the only one who can reveal His truth to us, He can use us and our logic to guide others to the light. But I believe that knowledge and logic needs to be accompanied by the love of God to reflect His light on them and show them that there is a better way to live, a way with Him as He designed us to live.
LU had some good points with âdebunkingâ evolution, but that biology so far beyond what I could really grasp. I have a much more physics/math/mechanics type of head. But when seeing how intricate and complex and wonderfully everything is made or engineered or designed, so incredibly brilliant, I find it hard to believe anyone believed in evolution as a thing of chance and randomness. Its like taking a computer (which can calculate 33 trillion calculations per second) and having that computer start out as 0s and 1s and trying every random combination possible, and having it create microsoft windows, something which was clearly engineered, and designed. It will never happen. To me, macro-evolution of chance and randomness takes WAY more faith than any religion out there.
The fact that if gravity was just .0001% stronger, the whole universe would crush itself, and weaker we would expand into forever and the planets and stars couldnât form. How if the universe were any smaller or bigger than it is the same would basically would occur, how we are designed to live on such and insanely small knife edge of probability, it isnât probable, it has to be designed. God probably couldnât count that high of the probability for creation to have been randomâŚprobably whey He didnât make it random, rather created/designed/engineered it.
I wouldnât mind learning about evolutionary creation, and how I could see that to maybe be possible that God created the evolutionary process to occur, and it was designed process, not random. My only hold back to that, is againâŚgenesis. âSo God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, ACCORDING TO THEIR KINDâ. That kind of leads me to me lego theory or building theory, as everything started as the same thing, sure, the building blocks, but it was created to its kind. Like a monkey is a kind, and a human is a kind, but there are all kinds of monkey types and human types, and we micro-evolve/adapt and can observe that. That would be foolish to say we canât adapt.
Now that I figured out the quote function. Thank you for your warm welcome
Thank you too for the welcome. I just came up with this, funny to know that there are similar beliefs held by others.
You missed the whole long discussion of this very thing last week. 
In case you want to check it out, because people probably wonât want to repeat themselves so soonâŚ
Do a control f search for Sabbath on this long thread: What biblical reasons are there to accept the scientific view of the earth as billions of years old? - #17 by Mike_Gantt
Or this one: Examining the Assumptions of Mosaic Creationism vis-a-vis the Assumptions of Evolutionary Creationism
Or check out some of the nice responses to essentially the same question here: The Sabbath day?
Actually, the course I have in mind is on the evidence-based scientific theory of evolution and genetics. The instructor explains right up front that it doesnât necessarily conflict with religious belief, and gives Francis Collins as an example of somebody who is religious and accepts evolution. It started August 14 but you still have time to enroll. Even if you donât end up accepting evolution, it would still be nice to find out exactly what you donât accept.
Introduction to Genetics and Evolution
I think that @jpm wanted to take this course.
The science is exactly the same, though. Evolutionary creationism is a theological perspective, not a scientific theory.
Maybe it would be helpful to read up on what randomness means to scientists. I think a lot of times we as lay people think it means without purpose and it is somehow antithetical to Godâs control, sovereignty, direction, and design.
Kathryn Applegate has a nice article on this issue: http://biologos.org/blogs/kathryn-applegate-endless-forms-most-beautiful/misconceptions-about-randomness
Here is another by James Bradley: Randomness in Theological Perspective - BioLogos
And another: Does Randomness Really Exist? - BioLogos
One thing I have learned in life, if that there is nothing as rare as an original idea. I am having a little problem following your examples, but trying to put it in a way that I think I understand, let me make a scenario.
- Jonah sits down
- God wants him to have a shade under which to contemplate what just happened.
- God creates a vine, that let us say he planted two years ago so it would have maturity to grow to a shade, but was not there whenJonah sat down.
Was it there yesterday? Does God change the past to achieve his purpose today?
That last question is not as strange as it seems, as in some respect, people pray for that to happen all the time. People ask God that âthe biopsy be benignâ when the tumor has been there for months or years, and to make it benign would be to change the genetic mutations that may have started decades earlier. Thus to change the biopsy would be to change the past. Yet we probably all have asked similar things.
I donât think these things are within our understanding, and am ok with that. But, I still think God would not lead people away from him by planting false evidence.
By the way, while I used Jonah, I tend to see his story as probably a parable.
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Still faked. Just like the fake bodies in Game of Thrones after a battle. Faked stuff happens all the time in movie productions, stage productions, Disney attractions, operas, etc. Great for entertainment.
But if somebody fabricated a human body that looked like the real thing and told the police that it was a corpse, what would you think of that?
Thanks, interesting read. That just blew my mind and that part of my theory. Some super intelligent people on this forum.[quote=âjpm, post:21, topic:36495â]
Was it there yesterday? Does God change the past to achieve his purpose today?
That last question is not as strange as it seems, as in some respect, people pray for that to happen all the time. People ask God that âthe biopsy be benignâ when the tumor has been there for months or years, and to make it benign would be to change the genetic mutations that may have started decades earlier. Thus to change the biopsy would be to change the past. Yet we probably all have asked similar things.
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I donât know if God needs to change the past to achieve his purpose since He is outside of time and knows all things. He allowed Joseph to be sold to slavery, which was thought to be a bad thing, until he ended up saving the Israelite by saving for food. Men meant it or perceived it as evil, but God for good. I do know that God heals supernaturally, we canât explain that with science, as any thing super natural is not natural, it is outside our laws. Though I pray for what I desire, but always end my prayers with âThy will be doneâ. That is part of my relationship with God, to talk to Him, though He knows what I need before I ask it. But I also know that He is just and wise and knows what is best for me and the rest of the world, and I donât want anything outside of His will to occur. As Joseph might have prayed for His captures to go blind or something temporarily so that he could escape back to his father. Then the Israeliteâs would have starved to death years later. Our feeble minds donât know what is best for us or the rest of the world. So though I might pray for healing, it is not something I wish to happen if it is outside of Gods will, I canât see the big picture and that requires faith and trust in Him that He knows best.
It is possible that it was a parable, but if it wasnât, it seems that a plant grew quicker than it would in our natural world, under out natural rules of time.
I still donât see that as false evidence though, something that really did occur, just in a different realm of time that we know today.[quote=âbeaglelady, post:22, topic:36495â]
Still faked. Just like the fake bodies in Game of Thrones after a battle. Faked stuff happens all the time in movie productions, stage productions, Disney attractions, operas, etc. Great for entertainment.
But if somebody fabricated a human body that looked like the real thing and told the police that it was a corpse, what would you think of that?
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I havenât seen the show, but I am aware of it. The writers arenât trying to deceive you, quite the opposite, they are trying to tell you a story, a story of a war, and after that war, dead bodies are on the ground. Surely it isnât a real dead human in life as we know it, but fake actors/dummies/CG to make bodies appear to continue a story and paint a picture for those who watch it.
Why do you care if a tree fell and you werenât around to see it. we both agree a tree fell, another one grew, ect. time elapsed. We both agree on that. And we both agree it took 80 years (13.7 bill years) for these events to occur. I am simply stating that time can be relative, and it could have also took a week (6000 years). I think a YEC only who believes that a mountain was just placed there, it didnât have plates colliding ect. Or they believe a 100â tree just appeared with rings and roots, I do think that might be a little deceptive, that is a false tree/mountian/earth/star with no history. I am speaking of a real history, that really occurredâŚjust much faster than time moves for us now in the beginning, during its creation.
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But when we uncover the history in rocks, we find a history that shows things not really compatible with the âperfect creationâ envisioned by YECs, pre-Fall. So the question remains, why would God put a history of death, disease, predation and creatures that never actually existed, (or existed in some sped up time, in which case, why was that sped up history full of âbadâ things that supposedly hadnât entered the pristine new world yet) in the mature rocks he created during creation week. AIG recognizes this as a problem, which is why they insist that all those rocks had to be created during the global Flood.
[quote] But we get into difficulty if we say that during Creation Week God supernaturally created the thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks containing billions of impressions in the rocks that looked like (but were not) the fossilized remains of plants and animals (because those creatures would never have existed). God is neither a liar nor a deceiver (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2), yet this scenario would involve God in deception for several reasons.
First, having impressions in the rocks that look like fossils of former living things is not needed for fully formed, mature rocks. Many sedimentary rocks have no fossils, yet are just as suitable to be used for construction material as rocks that contain fossils. So why make rocks with impressions that look like the fossilized remains of former living things?
Second, a great percentage of those fossils show evidence of disease (including cancer), arthritis, carnivorous activity and violent death (even being buried alive). Having such bizarre and grotesque impressions in rocks would certainly not make them better rocks. What conceivable purpose would God have for creating stones with impressions that look like the diseases we have today and which we and God call evil? It would seem to be deliberate deception on Godâs part to make us think that those impressions in the rocks are the fossilized remains of animals that lived with disease and ate one another, when in fact those rocky impressions were simply His creations during His âvery goodâ Creation Week.
Third, some of those impressions in the rocks are not completely stone, but are partially organic material virtually identical to the organic material in very similar living creatures today. What conceivable purpose would God have for creating such partially fossilized organic material? Again, it would appear to be deception.[/quote]
The only reason I can see a YEC-only person to believe what they believe is because of what they were indoctrinated with growing up. If we can literally measure something to be billion years old, how can you refute that?
The only reason I think anyone canât change their mind to a paradigm they have is that that paradigm is their foundation. If that thing is proven to be wrong, then everything else must be wrong and they are brought into a tsunami. That is why Jesus is the only true rock and foundation with which to stand on. His truth will never change nor be proven wrong. That is why I do enjoy a debate and learning, but to get angry and insult is wrong (though I am sure I do it at times as we all sin, though I try not to and pray for strength and donning the armor of God), it cuts down people and turns them away from the truth and grace and justice of love of God. I canât say I know, because that would void faith, but God has revealed to me with a logical faith that seems like certainty, to know that God created us to have a relationship with Him, and Jesus is the only way back to Him, and outside of that foundation, nothing can shake it, it is grounded to the core. So if you tell me the ark has been proven to not have existed. might not believe your science was real, but if you could prove it, it wouldnât shake me, that ark is not my foundation is any Bible story. It would mean that I am not interpreting it correctly or something, but it doesnât change who God is or who He created me to be.
The reason I say logical faith is because I have knowledge of these things, but I am weak, and human, and fail so many times to live that faith. Thanks be to God, He doesnât look at our past, and allows us to try our best every day, and helps us if we remember to turn to Him and grow closer to Him. Because we canât do it on our own, but only through the help of the holy spirit inside us.
I do believe the Bible is inspired by God, much like many sermons at church are inspired by God. The Bible is just the first reference with which to preach from. It all says the same things over and over, and that is all a sermon is, repeating something already said/written and God can use that to speak to us through revelation. When Jesus told us not to be angry that is as bad as murder, that wasnât new, that was just explaining what that commandment meant originally and that it has always been about the heart. Most of the Bible is historical, the rest of it is just restating or explaining what was already said. God reveals Himself to everyone so that they are without an excuse, and all who seek will find. Regardless of if you have a Bible or not or know the actual age of the earth or meaning of the 7 days. And He can use it to bring us to Him, and reflect His glory so that all may know Him.
But that is why I believe many people insult over their beliefs or paradigm/worldview is attacked, their world view is their sandy foundation and they have to defend it or they panic when they see the waves coming.
@still_learning If youâd rather not study genetics (a really big part of the previous course), there is also a course called Evolution Today. I havenât taken this particular course though, but most coursera courses Iâve taken have been very interesting. Let me know what you think!
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Obviously, the only things that concern us here are things that indicate the age of the Earth. You canât make thousands of fossils, pressed between hundreds of sedimentary layers, in 6000 years. Fossils are not created in less than 10,000 years.
So, instead of asking me futile questions, ask yourself what would God be doing making fake fossils for animals that never lived to take a breath?
That is my point! For entertainment purposes itâs fine, because there is an understanding that we are suspending our disbelief for the sake of being entertained. But if you made a realistic fake bloody body, left it in the road, and then reported it to the police, what would happen? Is that not deception?
Would you care if every day God destroyed almost everything on earth except you, replacing everything with totally new people, animals, plants, topsoil formed instantly, etc. And a house for you that is brand new but has peeling paint and other signs of aging⌠And cancelled checks showing that you have been paying a mortgage for 10 years to a bank that was created instantly. And a garden with tomato plants, and even weeds. And in your house you had canned tomatoes you never grew or bought. And what if he implanted false memories into your head of moving into this house, growing tomatoes and canning them, and sharing them with the new people you think you have lived alongside a long time. Would it matter to you?
Why couldnât you have life and death of animals and they get buried and fossilized over a few million years in one week? Why is that deceitful? I am saying that these things possibly occurred exactly as you as scientist say. Thousand of feet of sedimentary rocks containing billions of impressions in the rocks that were fossilized remain of plants and animals. If the universe occurred in 1 day over 13.7 billion years, why could not the all of these fossils have been truely and historically made in 1 day over a few million years? Could God not have enjoyed watching the animals roam over the earth over millions of years (time lapse years).
It seems to me like you think I am a YEC only believer? I believe all of that happened. I just think it was all as @r_speir said, the winemakers time.
Why is disease and arthritis grotesque? It is what it is. One mans trash is another mans art. Multiple facets of existence. It might not make them better rocks, that might not have been the intent. The intent might have been to let it be as it is. God could have created us to have steel bones and they wouldnât break, but then they might rust, or we would need larger muscles to move them, and larger hearts to pump blood ect. I canât claim to know why God did what He did. But He did do what He did, and allows it to play out. However humans were not subject to these diseases or malfunctions until they fell away from God. And one day again we will not mourn nor thirst, nor hunger, nor die. God created animals and they have bones and bones get arthritis, and diseases that help end the life of them, so new ones can be created and not overpopulate the earth. If there were no faults in these animals, and they could breed, they would overpopulate the earth and there would be no room for humans, These as you call them âgrotesqueâ things could have had a great purpose. Unfortunately after the fall, these things now happen to us, but they are also reminders to trust in God like the thorn in Paulâs side. A blessing in disguise?
I canât say for certain, God has not revealed it to me. But like I explained above, just because our feeble minds canât understand or explain, doesnât imply deception. A child who is getting disciplined for not looking both ways sees the discipline as mean or unjust, but the parent who is much more wise, knows it is to save their life, so they look both ways and donât get hit. Not insulting you,humans compared to God have feeble minds. I am not saying this proves my theory either, I am simply saying, just because we canât explain or understand something, doesnât make it deception.
Because the only reason for positing this would be an unassailable commitment to a literal interpretation of Genesis 1. It makes more sense to me to re-evaluate the interpretation, and seeing that there are other solid, Bible honoring interpretations that donât require positing an unlikely, unprovable, warp speed history, those options are just rationally and intuitively more attractive to me. And I think warp speed history introduces theological problems with the problem of evil. If we are taking Genesis 1 literally on the time part, why arenât we taking it literally on the no death (or other ânatural evilsâ like disasters and disease) before the Fall part? Unless you are just saying you want OEC theology, but the young earth time frame. I still donât see why the literal week is so compelling though.
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