Now you want Evolution 101? Fish developed air-bladders to control their position in water. Some fish that found their ecosystem was becoming less and less oxygenated started to exploit their dual air bladders as a place to humidify atmospheric oxygen.
These fish developed their fins into more robust locomotive devices… and the synergyy between being able to spend more time out of the water … and get further on their tetrapods (4 limbs) eventually led to amphibian style living.
Hi Bill,
My source on that was Sean Carroll (~2000), which was also Darwin’s theory. However, more recent research has inferred based on fossils and genomic evidence (much of which has come available only in the past 15 years) that lungs developed independently of swim bladders.
http://biologylabs.utah.edu/farmer/Evolution%20of%20Fish%20lungs.html
Good question, thanks for asking.
Chris
If there are 30 cell divisions required to go from zygote to gamete in females
and 400 (on average) cell divisions required to go from zygote to gamete in males
then new mutations arising in any of those 430 cells will lead to new mutations in their offspring.
Just to clear something up, the circulatory system and the respiratory system were once one and the same thing - the evidence for this comes from comparative biology. At first oxygen simply entered organisms by diffusion - they didn’t need lungs or gills because they were small enough or thin enough to minimise the oxygen gradient. Then simple circulatory systems were developed to redistribute nutrients, gases, and metabolic wastes internally and allow for larger body plans.
You can read about the development of circulatory systems here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jth.12253/full
A circulatory system is any system of moving fluids that reduces the functional diffusion distance that nutrients, gases, and metabolic waste products must traverse regardless of its embryological origin or its design. Circulatory systems are highly varied. In diploblasts, they involve circulation of seawater into a body cavity that is open to the environment. In triploblasts, however, circulatory fluid is an internal, extracellular, aqueous medium produced by the animal, and distributed either through body cavities or through integrated networks of vessels, sinuses, and pumping organs. Circulatory fluids can be moved by ciliary function or muscle action. Directional flow is achieved by means of coordinated peristaltic waves of contraction and/or the presence of one-way valves. There are two internal circulatory systems: coelomic and blood vascular. Most triploblastic animals possess both a coelomic circulatory system and a blood vascular system.
[quote=“Billcole, post:108, topic:16409”]
Both design and common descent can make predictions about data we don’t have. [/quote]
Please provide five from the former, then. Note that the predictions must predict the data themselves, not how you or anyone else will interpret them.
[quote]What we can’t do is show either mechanism working to the point were we can experimentally demonstrate the claims.
[/quote]You’re back to denying the scientific method.
Evolution-based hypotheses are made all the time… with many failing the test of the hypothesis. And there are many who meet the test.
This depends on how you are defining your terms “evolution” and “information”. So please tell us how you are using those words.
The question is if blind and mindless process like natural selection and drift can produce new information- " the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects"
That is what you need evidence for. BTW ID is not anti-evolution
If God participates in the process of Evolution - - which is the presumption of the BioLogos mission statement! - - then evolution is neither blind nor mindless.
I wasn’t sure who you were asking regarding definitions for “evolution” and “information”.
The prediction is that newly discovered biological design concepts will have similar similar human design concepts.
design concept- rotory energy sequence error correction measurement feedback code generated design
biological discovery- flagellum/ATP syntase DNA/Alternative splicing DNA repair all biological control sys protein synthesis
human design- outboard motor/jet turbine human language/telephone numbers 3D printing computer/semiconductor mfg heating air conditioning
Hi Bill,
You need to provide predictions about things that only intelligent design could explain and evolutionary biology could not. None of the biological discoveries you mention are contrary to evolutionary biology, so the predictions are not helpful.
Advent blessings,
Chris
Bill, what part of “the predictions must predict the data themselves, not how you or anyone else will interpret them” wasn’t clearly stated? “Concepts” and “similar” as you’ve used them in your unscientific predictions are completely subjective (not to mention wrong, because the differences vastly exceed the similarities).
Again, science is the way it is to prevent us from cheating and inserting our wishful thinking into the process. Why can’t you make any truly empirical (data only) predictions? What are you afraid of?
Hi Chris,
I disagree. We might get to that later, but for a start we could concentrate on empirical things that might be predicted by a truly scientific ID hypothesis/hypotheses.
“Reality” and the logic embedded in a functioning reality, frequently comes in just a handful of ways.
Imagine a scientist who just recently invents a microscope … and discovers that there are channels within a cell that remind him of a vast highway system.
WOW… design, right!?!@?! No. It is the “logic” of the real world.
All he is doing is noting that for any thing to get from “A” to “B”… whether in a cell or in a national highway system, creating distribution channels facilitates the process.
In the case of a highway I agree with you but what I am observing is more. We are seeing sophisticated design concepts like a mathematical sequence or error correction and detection. Whats even more remarkable is that we are at the stage where we have implemented those same design concepts ourselves and therefor can validate the design inference. I have just mentioned some of what I have seen in my cancer research. I see design concepts that are consistently utilized across the cell.
What do you mean by mathematical sequence? Can you give a concrete example? And what is surprising about error correction?
Per wiki. [quote]Image result for mathematical sequence definition
In mathematics, a sequence is an enumerated collection of objects in which repetitions are allowed. Like a set, it contains members (also called elements, or terms). The number of elements (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence.[/quote]
Humans have created sequences for language, telephone numbers and computer passwords. The nature of a sequence allows for exponential growth of the possible combinations of arrangement by the following formula. S=X^P where S is possible ways to arrange the sequence. X is the number of possible characters and P is the length of the sequence.
The telephone number 515-606-2131 is a 10 digit sequence. It is also “layered” in that it contains 2 3 digit sequences 515 and 600 plus one 4 digit sequence 2131. Using the formula there are 10^10 possible ways to arrange this sequence. Since there are 300 million people in the US a 10 digit number provides more then enough telephone numbers.
Hi Ace
Per wiki. [quote]Image result for mathematical sequence definition
In mathematics, a sequence is an enumerated collection of objects in which repetitions are allowed. Like a set, it contains members (also called elements, or terms). The number of elements (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence.[/quote]
Humans have created sequences for language, telephone numbers and computer passwords. The nature of a sequence allows for exponential growth of the possible combinations of arrangement by the following formula. S=X^P where S is possible ways to arrange the sequence. X is the number of possible characters and P is the length of the sequence.
The telephone number 515-606-2131 is a 10 digit sequence. It is also “layered” in that it contains 2 3 digit sequences 515 and 600 plus one 4 digit sequence 2131. Using the formula there are 10^10 possible ways to arrange this sequence. Since there are 300 million people in the US a 10 digit number provides more then enough telephone numbers.
There is also the evidence that in his own day Jefferson was widely accused by political opponents and in scurrilous cartoons etc of keeping Sally as his mistress.
But some years ago I read that DNA testing of some of Sally’s descendants had suggested that not all of Sally’s children were Jefferson’s - others seemed likely to be by one of his brothers-in-law, or nephew. Maybe this has now been superceded by more up to date and detailed genetic analysis?
Ancestry in slave-owning households such as the Jeffersons and their relatives must be pretty complicated. Sally was the half sister of Jefferson’s wife (deceased before Sally’s relationship with Jefferson started) so her children with Thomas were related to his children by his wife on both the paternal and maternal side - not full siblings but more than half-siblings. Five-eighths siblings, would it be? And that’s supposing that there were no earlier mixed race unions between say, Sally’s grandmother and Jefferson’s wife’s grandfather.
I think we need to remind ourselves of the context of Intelligent Design.
Intelligent Design is inspired by instances of AMAZING genetic adaptation to Natural Selection.
But there are also many instances where the genetic adaptation is AWFUL.
This more even-handed context is most consistent with a God guiding evolutionary processes… rather than the idea that God individually crafted each and every species… which amounts into the millions for terrestrial life forms alone.
Since ALL these Millions couldn’t be expected to fit on the Ark … they would have had to have been CREATED by God after the flood.
Sounds a little silly to me.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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