Hi Darrel, I’m a long time retired engineer and Christian. I believe in a loving, kind and just God who would not physically torture those who do not pass muster at the final judgment. It’s just not in His nature IMO. Instead, since God can’t abide Sin, I think He will banish those poor souls from his presence and love forever. My speculation is they will be “on the outside looking in” and separated from each other, pondering their life choices for all eternity. Regards, Charlie
That’s vile Chuck : ) I’d prefer physical torture. I’ve had it from illness. It’s amazing what you can put up with. But God is competent. Being tortured mentally forever for a few breaths of weakness and ignorance is… sick. God’s competence is in fixing us. All.
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You are not alone with these thoughts, Chuck. Some of us around here (maybe only a very few of us … maybe even just me) see more than mere “room” in scriptures for the God who will not rest until the last sheep is in the fold - I see a scriptural narrative arc that won’t rest easily with any other conclusion apart from that. It doesn’t mean that judgment and punishment (even hell) don’t exist … they just don’t get to be elevated up into “co-eternality” with (made equal to or even greater than) God’s love - which is the status they are given if hell wins to all eternity. That (to me) is soundly unbiblical all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Rescuing people out of Hell and into the presence of God is the entire program of Christ. He pillaged the pits of hell itself to begin that grand project.
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Thanks Chuck for your reply. This is a topic I think about daily.
That is what the Pharisees thought and what Jesus proved wrong. It was pretty much the whole point of the incarnation. God can and did come down to live among us sinners.
That is not a loving, kind, and just God. I am not a universalist like these others here. But I think hell is something people create and do to themselves.
I don’t think so. Those pondering their life choices are the ones God is working on in the only heaven which has any of us human beings in it. Other than Jesus, there are no human beings without sin and I don’t think He would be apart from us either.
But I don’t think we should be too quick to discount the teaching of Jesus on this matter. And my conclusion is that heaven and hell are not bins, scenery, or something done to us, but rather something that WE DO, and the choice is ours. Either we accept the help of God to change, removing the self-destructive habits of sin, or those habit devour us until there is nothing good left of us. Thus those “in hell” are not pondering their lives any more than they are being tortured by God. They are consumed by the sin they have refused to be parted from. It is really the simplest of choices between creation or destruction – either we accept the help of God to grow or we have joined ourselves to evil and destruction. And the former is not some kind of code for accepting some set of Christian doctrines. I certainly do not think the choice between good and evil is some secret meaning – but is instead exactly what it sounds like: choosing whether you want to be and do good, or instead to sacrifice everyone else for your own pleasure or advantage.
In another thread we consider the possibility that some might be be rescued from the wrong choice and hell. I said I think it is possible. But I do not agree with the rhetoric that says “love always wins” for love is not a means to power and it is perfectly clear to me from history that love does not always win either.
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Ok. I’m an 87 y/o newbie and not used to the hornet’s nest I stepped on. I’m gonna respond to you and a few others on some of the comments that jarred me a little. First, Jesus is both man and God simultaneously. He took on the problem of sin as a man by sacrificing Himself on a cross for all of us sinners. Those of us who truly believe that he is the Son of God and believe that he takes our personal sins upon Himself become sinless in the eyes of God and can thus “pass muster” at the judgement.
Second, I’m gonna take a mulligan on my comment that God banishes sinners away from his presence and love forever and they are doomed to ponder their life choices while separated from God and each other until the end of time. Someone commented that speculation was sick and vile. I’m reminded that somewhere in the Bible it says that that “the wages of Sin is Death” so let’s just leave it at that. If you die unrepentant and without Jesus to vouch for you, you are Dead, Kaput and without hope.
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Notice we don’t agree with each other any more than we agree with you. …just a lot of different ideas by different people who have thought about this stuff a lot. …and yeah it is a sore point for many.
Yep. 100% man 100% God. Part of the Nicea 325 AD definition of Christianity.
Over and over again, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven, so go and sin no more.” Jesus did not say “I am going to do a human sacrifice of myself and magically get you an indulgence for all your sins.”
Likewise brave soldiers fought died for the freedoms of our country. This doesn’t mean human sacrifice black magic any more than the Bible means any such thing when it says Jesus died for our sins.
Those who believe Jesus is the Son of God believe Jesus is the Son of God. And those who believe in black magic and human sacrifice believe in black magic and human sacrifice. No. Disagreeing with you on one of your beliefs does not mean they do not believe something else that you may believe. It does not logically follow. Frankly, I think those who truly believe in God will trust in the wisdom and knowledge of God rather than in their own supposed “knowledge” or in the dogma of their religion.
But what does that mean? I certainly don’t think it means that if babies die, it is because they sinned in their cribs. I think it is referring to the death of the spirit and all that stuff about hell follows from this. But then doesn’t “wages of sin” means that sin is what does this to people rather than God? And since sin is something WE do, then doesn’t it follow that hell is something we do to ourselves?
I think it is pretty clear that repentance is what Jesus was looking for in people.
Our hope is that everyone will repent (when their time comes for this), turn to Christ, and be saved. I think God wants this to be the case, as that is why His only begotten Son came amongst us.
I am also aware that each one of us may decide not to repent, So the Gospel warns us against such a perverse outlook, because we would be cut of from God if we rejected God’s Grace.
It is because of this possibility that we are told to repent and have faith in God, as our many faults may overcome us. Hell is indeed the ultimate end of our sins and perverse choices, and God wants us to avoid this.
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The tiny, frail, broken, helpless, afflicted, confused, ignorant, hopeless, graceless, terrified, twisted little creatures that we all are and become more so in some of those regards at least if we live long enough just have to wake up in glory. Jesus saves.
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Ah go on Chuck. I’m a mere boy 20 years your junior. Jesus vouches for everyone. That’s His day job. I’d bung you a like but you’d think I agree : )
Pax Christi, Darrell Anderson!
One view of Hell that may make sense to you is that it is a self-induced state of being where our unhealthy attachments prevent us from seeing God in his full glory, which is ever present and open to all those who want it. This has been a tradition in The Eastern Church for a very long time, which itself subscribes to no one doctrine on this subject, but it has also been formulated by great Western thinkers such as George MacDonald and C. S. Lewis; something interesting to note is that Lewis, much like Saint Gregory of Nyssa, saw it possible that the dead can open the gates of Hell from the inside, which have already been penetrated by Christ, if they so choose to let Him in.
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I started this thread about three years ago and had significant discussions and feedback that were very helpful.
I still struggle with Hell but I no longer can accept eternal conscious torment as it makes no sense and would have no purpose.
I am still not sure where I stand on this. Maybe annihilation or universalism.
What bothers me still are the masses that want to cling to eternal torment and call you a heretic if you disagree.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
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I think you have plenty of company.
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- Although nothing said here will actually change post-death reality, I see no harm in expressing an opinion or wish on the topic.
- In my opinion, there is only heaven after death. It’ll only be hell for those who don’t want to be there or are unable or unwilling to regret and express remorse.
- In my view: post-death existence will provide:
- a place and opportunity for joy. gratitude, and service’
- a place and opportunity for undergoing repair; and
- a recycle bin.
- One of the motivating “arguments” for revision of one’s eschatology is a conviction that God is or can go anywhere, including “Hell”.
- A second motivating “argument” for revision is the conviction that, when all is said and done, God wins. If that’s your conviction, as it is mine, does an eternal existence of evil beings–human and demonic–make sense? Not to me, it doesn’t.
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Have you looked at extra canonical books of that time? The Book of Enoch: Enoch's Journeys through the Earth and Sheol: Chapter XXI. You may find this Interesting.
The words of Jesus are the lens through which I read scripture and this is where we find eternal torment. I have not seen good reason to be dismissive of what Jesus says about this. But I don’t agree with calling this disagreement heresy. Eternal conscious torment is not in the creed of Nicea 325 AD, and you find other options in the thinking of the church fathers.
As a punishment I quite agree. The only rational meaning I see in punishment is for behavior modification and thus if it lasts forever then it is a complete failure. However as natural logical consequences of our choices is completely different matter. Life is full of very harsh permanent consequences. Step off a tall building and there is no taking that back – the consequences are extreme and permanent. Therefore natural logical consequences which are harsh and permanent is what life teaches us about reality and pretending otherwise is to indulge in delusion and fantasy.
It is a wise observation of many atheists that we are all mostly atheist, for the number of gods and religious teachings we don’t believe in greatly outnumber the number we do believe in. So there are many versions of God I would never believe in, including many to be found with the Christians spectrum of belief. Likewise there are many version of hell I would never believe in either. Though most of the things which bother me and have rejected are other things than the three words you have focused on, “eternal conscious torment.” But let’s take a look at these words… and their combination…
- eternal - This is a word which Jesus has used Himself (…or Aramaic equivalent to the Greek used by the gospel writers). The alternative to something being eternal is that nothing we do has any consequences which cannot be escaped. This sounds like something itching ears would seek to hear – wishful thinking. And it doesn’t agree with what I see of people and life. Sin is addictive and escaping it seems to be exception rather than the rule, for which the word miracle is apt.
- conscious - This is not a word which Jesus has used, but it does fit what He describes in parables He tells.
- torment - Various words are used including κόλασιν (translated as punishment or torment), weeping and gnashing of teeth, fire, darkness, and others.
- eternal torment - its in the words of Jesus, Matthew 25:46
- conscious torment - the parable where Jesus describes a conscious experience (Luke 16) is definitely about the torment which a person experiences. Its not proof but very suggestive.
- eternal conscious - the same parable is about not being able to escape, but since sin does seem to diminish consciousness perhaps conscious torment does not remain undiminished forever.
I would rate the possibilities as follows (percent of how much I can support)
Eternal diminishing conscious torment as something we do to ourselves 100%
Diminishing conscious torment which eventually results in nonexistence. 90%
Eternal conscious torment as something we do to ourselves 90%
Universalism - God will somehow manage to get through to everyone 80%
Atheism and no existence after death and thus no torment at all 70%
Eternal conscious torment as something God does to people 20%
annihilationism - God destroys the souls/spirits of some people 0%
Atheism is an option for me and I would go for that rather than the last two. I will never believe in a torturer God, but my difficulties with annihilationism are even more profound – yanking the rug out from the reasons I believe in any of this religious stuff. Even supposing there is a torturer God, the creature would not have my support but only my condemnation. I would rather be the victim of such a devil-god than be one of its craven servants. But annihilationism? If we could escape it all by simply ceasing to exist then atheism is by far the more rational way of doing that. It just seems a bit too easy for me. That is the basis for believing in any of this religious stuff - thinking that we cannot escape from ourselves and the choices we made. Why the heck would we need to invent a magic man in the sky to make it all go away? That is just way too twisted for me.
And Matthew 10:28? I don’t think that is talking about God as some soul destroying monster. The one to fear most is not God. God is not our greatest threat and enemy. We are our greatest enemy. We are the one who can destroy our own spirit in hell. The proper fear of God is not because He is like some gunman criminal threating us with a big gun using fear to make us do what He wants as if cowardice were some kind of virtue – that sounds more like the devil to me.
Have you been able to check out the podcast hosted by Chris Date titled “Rethinking Hell?” I still think it’s the best podcast on this subject since it has around 400+ hours of discussions and debates solely on this topic. They also still have a fairly active Facebook group.
I’m in the same boat. I see absolutely no reason to believe in eternal conscious torment. The only two beliefs that make any since and that seems to be able to be supported by scripture is annhilationism and universalism. I lean mostly towards conditional immortality since it says “ be afraid of he ( god ) who can destroy both body and soul in hell ) and how we all face two outcomes. Eternal life or eternal punishment and how hell is the lake of fire which is the second death, implying dying a second time. Death is natural. We all die once. Through the grace of God through Jesus Christ some of us or all of us will receive eternal life. I lean towards some of us and not everyone. So I think some simply don’t receive eternal life and so once they die a second time, they are dead forever with no hope of resurrection.
But in the same way that the symbolic verses of places like worm that never dies, or endless smoke and revelation hellfire scenes can be interpreted through the Old Testament showing how it’s just hyperbolic war speech, perhaps that symbolism is carried over even more strongly to everyone being refined and remade in Christ just like all of creation.
But after listening to hundreds of hours of podcasts, and reading several books including a handful by universalist, the one that is most convincing to me is annhilationism. But I’ll continue to study universalism and annhilationism nonetheless.
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Yes. Sorry for the delay. I have not visited Biologos recently.
I do follow Chris Date and his YouTube channel. I try to let others know about this as well.
Thanks for your response. Much appreciated.
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