Don’t look around at the dark water like Peter did when he begsn to sink. Look to Jesus.
Okk. What does this mean and what does it have to do with my above post? A little confused sorry
You don’t like what you perceive his justice system to be – it seems dark to you. His justice is perfect, regardless of any human misperceptions. Jesus is the resolution you should embrace.
Nothing to do with it. I believe his justice is not justice at all. Not only that it is dark it is unfair.
Human misperceptions? I dont think so.
You make a very deep point and observation here, I think, Nick. I am struggling to figure this out.
I’m thinking in the crucifixion, Jesus acknowledged natural evil–“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” So, he noted that 1) people would not really hurt him if they knew what they were doing, 2) evil happens as a result of horrible happenstance–and it wasn’t even stopped by God. Even Jesus suffered from that.
I’ve really struggled over my own ability as a parent lately. I say, rather sadly, to my kids that when I’m 100, I’ll be a better dad. I am not even that great of a son–I used to tell my parents that I should put money aside to put them through counseling, for what I and my siblings did to them. I think, the way I am going as a parent, that I’m much less perfect than I thought I would be as a young man or child. My kids will need some deconstruction for what I have done to them, too (and that’s as a relatively routine childhood, I think–with average failures on my part).
Another thought is–is God’s punishment vindictive, or corrective? It seems to me true justice and punishment is for correction.
I’m reminded of a quote from “Till We Have Faces”
‘Are the gods not just?’
‘Oh no, child. What would become of us if they were?’
It seems to me we really have little control over what we do. We are not as strong as we think we are.
I am trying to see things more from God’s perspective. I honestly have a long way to go. However, I think that once that happens, I’ll be able to forgive others, and myself, better.
However, I don’t know the answers–at all. The more I think I know them, the less I do.
I love this quote from Henri Nouwen:
“When we honestly ask ourselves which person in our lives mean the most to us, we often find that it is those who, instead of giving advice, solutions, or cures, have chosen rather to share our pain and touch our wounds with a warm and tender hand. The friend who can be silent with us in a moment of despair or confusion, who can stay with us in an hour of grief and bereavement, who can tolerate not knowing, not curing, not healing and face with us the reality of our powerlessness, that is a friend who cares.”
Respectfully,
Randy
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If 1 holds true then that means that people are ignoramt and they do not know that they are hurting us? This cant be possible because well im sure a lot of people know they arw hurting us and they do it anyway. I know it first hand.
If 2 hold true then that means that God is not all capable .
People suffer for somebody elses sins sometimes too. It wasnt only Jesus. If God cannot control evil then theres no help. We are doomed
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What about you…do you deserve mercy?
If i did something to someone that didnt deserved it absolutely not. I would accept the revenge they will take on me as they should. Everybody got its fues in life to pay.
Depends.
Do you deserve mercy from some monster (human or otherwise) who intends to do you harm? They are monsters because they pursue what they want without any regards to the well being of others. It is the monsters who deserve the same as what they deal to others.
Do you deserve mercy with regards to the logical consequences of your own actions? No, that is part of what mercy means. But mercy is advisable for helping people to learn from their mistakes. So whether it is good to show mercy depends on whether we can hope or expect them to learn from mistakes. When they show a pattern of refusing to learn from such mistakes then mercy becomes pointless.
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I would suggest that you underestimate your own capability and influence.
Nearly all of us automatically imagine ourselves as the victim in that scenario, and almost nobody thinks they could possibly be the monster.
Jordan Peterson has this insight (as he is conversing with physicist Lawrence Krauss who pushes him on the subject of good and evil.) Peterson replies to this effect - (based on my memory and not an exact quote):
Look - we may not be able to spell out what absolute good is or looks like, but I defy you to look at some events of this past century and to not see evil in what was happening. All of us should be able to look at something like Auschwitz and come to the conclusion that maybe we ought to be the sort of people who would not do something like that so that that does not happen again. And here is the problem: we think we could and would never do such a thing! We identify with the victims in these atrocities - we never imagine that we might have been one of the guards or perpetrators had we been in the place of the Germans at the time.
Peterson insists (and devastatingly rightly so I insist) that we are delusional to think we are so much better than that. In fact it is our denial of that evil capacity inside ourselves that makes it so much more likely that such atrocity will be repeated.
You may think to yourselves,
“well - they were racists … they hated whole classes of people for despicable reasons.”
Is there a class of people - or perhaps a political tribe you don’t particularly care for?
“Well, yes - but I would never murder them.”
Okay, but all the same you kind of think your community or your nation would be better off if their tribe were … at least … diminished, right?
“Yes - but there are excellent reasons for opposing that tribe!”
Ahh - so your reasons are the ‘good ones’, but the evil people committing atrocities in the past - they didn’t think of their reasons as good?
And so the justification begins.
Nobody ever does things for “bad reasons”. They are always justified in their own minds at the time. There are books about normal upstanding citizens enthusiastically becoming brutal murderers (not even under immediate authoritarian compulsion, but of their own enthusiastic volition). We are deluded - and dangerously so to think we ourselves are beyond that.
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No . What you are implying is wrong.
No one becomes like that in a blink of an eye. No one wakes up one day and says "ohhh i suddenly hate this man "or “i hate this group of people”. No one does that. Its all experiences.
If someone has been treated poorly by bad women his whole life for example and he faced ingratitude in every relationship he had ,HE HAS EVERY right to be a misoginyst. I wont blame him one bitt. Its a bad thing to be one? Yes absolutely. Did he choose to? NO. Do i blame him? Not at all. He got mistreated poorly by a particular group of people. He has every right to hate them. EVERY RIGHT. Of course any action taken to someone from that group that didnt deserved it is condmned. But those from that group should ostracize even their own members who did the others wrong.
Revenge is a gift from God. No judge or law should condment such actions of revenge (of any kind)
Eye for an eye,evil for evil,tooth for tooth
Familiar with the verse"You have heard that it is an eye for an eye ,tooth for a tooth. But i tell you to resist not evil etc etc".
Jesus never said that. It is completely contradictory. It was Matthews attept to make the religion more"peacefull".
Wow. Speaking harsh like that to yourself is not good. Just to know
If you’re trying to disagree, you’ll have to work a bit harder. You’re reinforcing Peterson’s points - except for your conclusions (that such things are always justified - and even there, he would at least agree that it’s at least very much understood, if perhaps not always justified as to why people hate others).
Another thing Peterson said that I agree with …
You can tell something of a person’s character by the amount of truth they are willing to tolerate.
In its unmitigated forms, it seems to me like it might be one of the quickest ways to turn the world into an absolute hell hole. It sure does taste sweet in the short term, though (if you’re the one doing it.)
Your truth maybe. Everyone has theirs .
Ohhh it isnt already? My bad.So we are living in heaven or something. If God cant fix it let it destroy itself
The most useful Truth is the Truth common to all of us - the very reason we can hope to have meaningful discussion and forums - science and religion - anything meaningful. If there was no common set of premises (reality) from which we could all draw conclusions in common, then none of this could be happening.
For way too many it sure enough must be. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Sorry about that.
@NickolaosPappas , I think that every one of us comes to a time when, at least figuratively, we look into the dark hole of the abyss, and our world construct doesn’t answer it. You are asking good questions–some do not have answers–but I think that you will come the stronger for it.
My kids like this song. It resonates a lot with the “dark night of the soul,” that Mother Theresa wrote about.
for KING & COUNTRY - God Only Knows (Official Music Video) - YouTube
With prayers and blessings, Randy
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I might. I already trying my best. And i will always will
But ill never forget. Ill never forget the people who wronged me. Who betrayed me. Who left me in my most difficult times. Whom they left from my life without an explanation even though i needed them. Ill never forget and ill never forgive them.
Ill take revenge one way or another.
And if i wont be able to do that i hope God does. I hope God burns them in hell. Because they dont deserve heaven. They dont deserve forgivenness. And if God forgives them i wont. And ill also wouldnt want to be with God(if he did such thing).
One thing that is helpful to remember is that the majority of people don’t owe others anything. Often people who are friends bounce when they also don’t feel like they are being treated as friends. Or if someone is just simply wanting to blame everyone but themselves and they become a sort of emotional vampire. When people are actively living in drama and breathing toxicity into a relationship it’s reasonable that others pull away eventually.
A good question to ask is if the majority of people in a short time, like a year or two, keeps dwindling out of my life is it them or is it me? I’m sure you realize it’s immature and ridiculous to think that those who simply stepped away from their relationship with you have committed an unforgivable sin in your eyes worthy of eternal torturous damnation and if God does otherwise then screw him to and you would rather be in hell than in heaven with him and them.
Nick that mentality won’t ever bring you peace. It won’t ever bring back old exes or friends. It won’t cultivate a relationship with congregations or lead to new friendships. You have to remember whatever you are going to do are others. Suffering is not unique. Bitterness is not a badge of honor.
As you continue to transition from a teen to a young adult and into an older adult and as you go from living at home to paying rent and ect…. You’ll notice that you also have less time. As you fall into serious relationships, have a long term career, and settle down and develop your own roots you’ll notice you have a lot less time to give others. That’s without all the baggage of emotional vampirism.
This is rhetorical but something everyone typically needs to think about.
What do you want out of life in general?
How specific do you want that general happiness to be built on?
What can you start doing to achieve it.
A year ago when I was still in that PM thread with you and the others one thing at that time that seemed important to you was working out. Working out really helps build patience when does in a healthy manner. It takes a lot of disciple to fine tune a diet, count calories and grams, create the right nutrient composition, develop a work out plan and schedule and make it all sustainable. It’s really hard to find another person who also wants to do that with you consistently. As far as going to gyms and so on.
But there are other ways to help meet these goals. Instead of a running buddy or a workout partner you can join a cyclist club or a local amateur sports team. I’m getting ready to join a local disc golf club. They meet up twice a month as a whole, which is just a few guys. But many week up almost daily in smaller groups. Many of these guys also enjoy hiking and many also enjoy lifting. But if everyone we hang out I just vented exhaustively they would most likely begin to a kid me.
When bad things happen to people strangers and friends are willing to lend various degrees of their time to listen to the others vent. But it does not mean they will open up the doorway of long term exhaustive emotional tolls.
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We are going way off with this but no. Its not me. Its not me when those whom i considered my closest werent there in my time of need and left me emotionally weak. It wasnt me when my relationship walked out with no explanation of whatsoever rather than a cheap excuse. No. Ive seen my life changed in one night. Ivw been betrayed and hurted by my most loyal,trustworthy,loving people. People whom i could trust my life even though i would have been in the hospital. People that i would have trusted them more than doctors.
These people are done now. They dont deserve forgivenness(not that they asked for). They deserve the worst. They deserve nothing.
And the same pattern goes on. Good people have so many bad things happening to them ,while it seems the bad ones are the ones causing them and they get all the satisfaction of seeing us suffer. Thats the thread about. Not about me
I’m simply responding to the last few messages.
I think it’s fairly well established what bad things happen to good people.
- Natural events like fires and hurricanes or viruses.
- Random crappy acts. Like your tire goes out while driving.
- Making bad choices. Good people make bad choices sometimes. I recently went into a really bad part of town because of a small forested park there known to have king snakes. Had someone try to rob me. One of his partners just happened to know who I am and we have hung out in the past. I knew I should not have went there near dusk because it’s a bad spot with lots of drug addicts and stuff.
- Evil choices of others. Free will allows goodness and evil.
These things tend to happen to everyone.