Its not a ggd if its not superrnatural, and its not a religion without gods.
I know some like the “atheism is a religion” game but its dumb.
Prayer is attempting communication with a supposedly existent supernatural being.
Some think tpo influence it, maybe others others just to say " thanks, Boss ".
But if the prayee didnt think there was
some magic way they’d at least be heard
by magic being maybe they wont pray.
Esp if they dont even think there is someyhing there to hear it.
I think atheism is only at all like a religion when someone believes it is true and it colors how they see the world, themselves and other people. So it isn’t a religion for me. Is it for you?
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Hardly. Might vaguely compare to theveffect of total disinterest in
football, when i was at uni in usa.
Here, its nothing. No more a world view sort of thing than
figuring dragons are not real.
Just watch the dragin boat races and enjoy!
You remind me of a line from the move Arrival, “if all you have is a hammer then everything is nail.”
There is a big difference between something being useless and not treating things as something you can use. The distinction is important with people and God because they deserve respect. It may be that some people pray as a means to use God just as other people use speech as a tool of manipulation and control over people. The impossibility of manipulating God is what I believe is behind the Biblical notion of a proper fear of God – which some prefer to call respect. Like in the words of C.S. Lewis’ Narnia books, “He is not tame lion.”
Science is built upon our ability to demonstrate things by written procedures which give the same result no matter what you want or believe. Its applicability frankly sums up as things you can manipulate and control. Therefore, if you make that the measure of reality and the reason you reject the existence of God then you are clearly only interested in things you can manipulate and control. It is better not to believe in God if you think in such a way, because the only way to make “God” something you can use like that is if you are using religion as a tool of power – and no wonder such people think this is all that religion is about.
Now I am quite certain that this does not describe even the majority of atheists. I have known too many who simply are not interested in the things of religion. I have no problem with that, because I don’t believe in the sort of God who is obsessed with being worshipped, which I hear touted by too many of the religious. I frankly think that is more the obsession of the religious than of God.
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I had an interesting experience with a cobra
that I discovered dunning itself inches from where Id sat to rest by a shrine in Sai Kung.
It only moved its tongue, and I was not afraid.
Beautiful creature!
It has its purpose, its life, far from useless thoigh
surely had no utility in my life. Nor me in its
Various things you say seem generally reasonable or obvious, though they are generally not descriptive of me.
Not sure what your point is.
Those greater goods are just so worth it aren’t they?
There is nothing to understand, there is no theodicy just as there are no apologetics. Whether the ground of eternal being is intentional or not. There are no greater goods. So let’s be kind. Let’s be remembered for our kindnesses more than their lack.
We both seem to have these characterizations respectively of theists and atheists. You with talk about magical thinking and me about this need of some for everything that exists to be something you can use. The only difference seems to be that I understand that the characterization I have in mind does not apply to all atheists. It is the understanding which makes a difference from prejudice.
To whom is this addressed to
God is spirit.
And spirit generally means not physical in the sense of not a being whose existence is based on the measurable laws of nature… and thus we say supernatural rather than natural. But this is not the same as magical any more than other universes believed to exist by many scientists are magical. It is just an existence apart from the space-time mathematical structure of our universe. That doesn’t make it magical. It doesn’t mean there is no rationality of causation to its existence. Though I do think the materialistic reductionist view of even our universe is wrong. The universe does not exist because of the material property of components, rather its components have its existence and properties because of the space-time structure which it is a part of. So when we say that God does not derive its existence from material components that doesn’t make Him magical any more than the universe He created.
You can choose to believe there is no other existence than this mathematical structure of space-time which all evidence tells us came into existence 13.8 billion years ago. Or you can choose to believe that there is no other existence than this and other mathematical such structures which can be manipulated by the natural laws of their structure. But likewise I can choose for my own reasons to believe in an existence different from these which I call spiritual and that does not make it magical.
Atheism is not a religion. It is a classification of various beliefs regarding a religious question. But yes as Mark observes it can be made into a kind of religion. The same goes (and frankly even more so) for science. Science is not a religion. But it is strangely treated like a religion by some people as if it requires some kind of life devotion. This is what is usually behind this absurd irrational notion by different sorts of fundies that theists cannot be scientists. Science is an activity which people from all religions and cultures can and have participated in precisely because belief is irrelevant in the work of science. It is a procedural activity devised to filter out subjectivity and belief to find out truths about the measurable world around us. It is procedural in the sense of being based on procedural ideals of honesty and objectivity, where 1) you test hypothesis and 2) you use written procedures anyone can follow to get the same result no matter what you want or believe.
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Gods are supernatural if they exist…
Their powers are supernatural, ie, magic.
As for fundies doing good science- sure,
But problems in anything that overlaps with their
religion.
See Dr R Wise, PhD, paleontology.
" if all the evidence in the universe turned against yec, I would still be yec."
Intellectual dishonesty defined.
As for atheist Marxists doing good science- sure.
But problems arise in anything that overlaps with their economic dogmatism.
Intellectual dishonesty is indeed an issue because it conflicts with one of those procedural ideals of science which I mentioned.
What powers would those be? Just because you believed in a magical god doesn’t mean that other people do just because they disagree with your current religion.
Supernatural does not equal magic as I have already explained and you ignore. Something is not magical just because it isn’t a part of our particular space-time mathematical structure no more than other universes would be magical for such a reason.
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Hey Astrid. Very good points in this thread from you. Whats your answer to the question ? I suppose you are an agnostic or atheist such as me?
Marxist, fundie, who is denying that ideology may lead into intellectual dishonesty
Denying that the definition of magic is “supernatural” is not the same as explaining, and being right.
As for the supposed powers of supernatural
Beings. Why ask me? I am not the one who believes in them. You tell me.
If they can do anything then what they do is
supernatural, is, magic.
Ps “ my religion”?
Atheist. Unless you count offerings to the kitchen god. 
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Would that be like your denying the definition of atheist as believing there is no God?
Reasonable RATIONAL people having RATIONAL discussions accept the explanations of the definition of words. AND the FACT is that magical is NOT a part of the definition of supernatural!!!
Ah… so since you are an atheist then your cooking is atheistic, right?
We must not think that you think and love and work just like human beings but you must do all of those atheistically… LOL
What a ridiculous way of thinking.
No it does not follow that because God is spirit or supernatural that the things he does must be supernatural let alone magical.
Yes. Your religion.
And particularly when it gets in the way of rational discussion with other people.
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Look up magic. See where it says “ supernatural”.
All caps and ungraciousness wont change that.
I’d have to agree it’s some pretty ridiculous thinking that could come up with atheist cooking.
As for the “ religion” you made up and attribute to me, other than trying to tar me with your brush,
I see little purpose, and far less truth.
[content removed by moderator] Plz desist from posting to me, if you do I won’t look at it anyway.
Do you know any set theory or logic? Do you understand that just because a primate is an animal it does not mean that animals are primates?
So just because one meaning of magic comes under the category of supernatural doesn’t mean that everything supernatural is also magical.
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Ok everyone, this thread is going majorly off-topic and in danger of turning in to a snark fuelled dumpster fire.
I suggest everyone takes the night off and comes back tomorrow with fresh eyes (and in some cases attitudes).
I’ve also gone through it and all culled the off-topic/snarkiest comments. If you can no longer see one of your posts please assume that it fits into at least one of those categories or (in the case of one or two) was a reply to a post in one of those categories.
Thanks for your understanding.
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