I would agree that there are no objective morals in nature. There are only subjective morals. As it turns out, our subjective moral beliefs are very important to us humans. They define the way that we want to be treated, how others should be treated, and how society should work. Why isn’t that good enough? In the view of atheists, the morality found in the Bible is human morality that passed through the lens of the cultures that wrote the Bible.
Also, how do we know that Jesus’ commandments and advice are moral? Don’t we use our own sense of morality and knowledge to make those decisions?
If we as a human society believe it is wrong based on our own subjective emotions and feelings, why can’t we say that stealing is wrong? If a deity declared that stealing from each other is moral, would that make it moral?
Mervin, sorry if I did it incorrectly. What i did when I posted it was to first hit the Reply arrow at the bottom of the post I was associating it to just as I did for my response to you. I will copy the quote in the future.
Thank you.
It’s not good enough because it is empty and meaningless. If creation is not backed by a reason to be but it started out with just natural processes and has continued with the same process then everything that happens is without purpose. One group of people or society thinks the murder of children before they exit the womb is acceptable another doesn’t. Since these thoughts and opinions are just the byproduct of a chemical reaction in the brain, one way is not better than another. If your next door neighbor wants to break into your home, kill you, rape your wife and children then steal all your stuff, it’s neither right or wrong. Why would his chemical reactions be any better or worse than yours? A life lived not knowing God who created all things, is worth no more than the chemical reactions that lead a pig to look for food in his own manure.
Moral emotions in an atheistic world is a useless term. They supposes there is right and wrong. But in a natural world that has no purpose there is no right and wrong. And if the chemical reactions in some peoples brain create a thought that some things are right or wrong, so what; your next door neighbor may have a different chemical reaction. No atheist should ever condemn someone who causes them harm, it is irrational to condemn a chemical reaction.
Mankind was created by God and for God. If we reject Him and become our own god, all that is left is a useless life controlled by our own thoughts and desires and everyone becomes a law unto themselves.
Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Without knowing, loving, trusting and obeying the one true God and Jesus His son, life is useless and without any absolute assurance of anything except death.
Such an imagination you have. But your apprehension is contradicted by my lived experience. Of course life has moral meaning without belief in God. Why do you so much want to believe that the alternative to life on your terms is so drastically inferrior? People are people, with or without God. Why not just be happy to have a life you enjoy and wish others well with theirs? I would have thought that would be the Christian way.
I guess we just see things differently. In my experience, we humans give it meaning and purpose.
That’s strange since I do think that life came about through natural processes, and I am still able to find and create purpose in my life. I guess I don’t have a problem with inventing purpose for myself.
That doesn’t follow. Emotions are important to us, even if they come from chemical reactions. I don’t see a problem with using those subjective emotions and a bit of reason and logic to arrive at a morality that we can all enjoy.
If a deity tells your neighbor to do those things, does it become moral?
We give the universe purpose, and we decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.
The world I live in has human society where people interact, and where people want acceptance from one another. I think you live in a very different world than I do.
The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart. Jesus said “if you love me you will keep my commandments”. That is the Christian way. All of mankind’s self imagined purposes for living will end when he dies, then come the resurrection from the dead and the judgement of God.
Here’s where your logic breaks down; you also believe that God is sovereign over all things and His will is always done, correct? So, let’s take an example, I like to use the Sutherland Springs church shooting in Texas when I talk to Christians like yourself. On Nov 5, 2017 Devin Patrick Kelley fatally shot 26 people and wounded 20 others during a mass shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. The attack was the deadliest mass shooting in Texas. There were 8 children killed including an unborn child.
Now according to your beliefs, God was there; Matt 18:20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. And when I ask Christians about this event the standard response is that we don’t have the ability to understand God’s grand plan. But His way is sometimes difficult and we must trust that His will is always right. I won’t put words in your mouth but I’m betting you would say something similar.
So now you have a paradox; If it was God’s will that Kelley killed those people to accomplish some grand plan then it must have been moral for him to do so, correct? Or, are you saying that God’s will could be immoral?
There are many morals and rules of behavior that are possible but look at the history littered with fallen kingdoms and civilizations as dust in the sand. In nature there are immense possibilities for something to exist but the question is how long can it exist. The Lord is telling us this is the way to ever lasting life.
Matthew 7 : 24
Is like a wise man that builds his house on the rock… it did not fall because it had its foundations on the rock.
The gunman will be judged by God for his thoughts and actions during his life just as the church goers will.
Whether we die by the hands of someone that hates us or by sickness or old age it is irrelevant. God has made it plain to us, that those who put their trust and hope in Jesus do not need to fear death, for Jesus has conquered sin and death for us by rising from the dead. Death is in the world because of sin and it will remain that way until Jesus raises us from the dead. After death comes the resurrection and then comes Gods judgment. For those who have humbled themselves, put their trust and hope in the Father and the Son, it will be a resurrection to eternal life but for those who resisted God’s love and mercy, and lived their lives as if they were their own god, it will be a resurrection to condemnation; their own conscience bearing witness to themselves of their guilt.
The apostle Paul wrote; 2 Cor 5:6 “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.” That is what I am doing, knowing the fear of the Lord I try to persuade people to run from sin into a loving relationship with the Father and the Son.
Those who love God and put their trust in what Jesus did on the cross have already passed from death to life but those who do not accept the message of Jesus death on the cross, remain in their sins and are dead in their sins even while they yet live. The apostle Paul lead by God’s Spirit wrote, 1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”
The cross of Jesus is the only hope for each individual. Those who truly understand how wicked and sinful they are, will see how precious is the gift of the Son of God.
very little of what Jesus taught i would consider to be good advice.
some of what Jesus taught i would consider to be horrible advice.
#1 not saving anything for tomorrow - horrible advice. #2 selling everything you have and giving all the money to the poor - horrible advice. #3 telling people that they should kill people that remarry - horrible advice.
Welcome, @Dan_Bear! It would be. But it is hyperbole, isn’t it? No one believes Jesus really wanted people to cut their hand off or poke out their eyes if they caused them to sin. In the same way, the apocalyptic images were often illustrations to drive home an everyday important point of how urgent it is to love your neighbor…the kingdom of heaven, from my understanding. I am not saying all of this is easy to understand in this lens, but I think the point was to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.
It is very much in cultural context. That is why we need folks like NT Wright to interpret for us. (I do, anyway; and I am still learning).
It is nice to meet you on this Forum. I look forward to learning from you. In addition, can you tell us anything more about yourself? Thanks for your discussion.
I see you’ve attended the school of Christian obfuscation. I’ve encountered it many times before, I believe the rules are:
Don’t answer any question directly.
Pound them over the head with Bible verses about how they are going to Hell.
If possible, have a few verses refer to them as fools.
It’s baffling why people continue to leave organized religion.
This is the other thing that drives me crazy. It is not a gift, it is an ultimatum; believe in Jesus or else spend eternity being tortured. Explain to me how that is a gift? If it were truly a gift I would be able to say ‘No thank-you’ without repercussion.
I have sympathies with you regarding our common Christian “odor” of ultimatums. I think you are correct that a gift and an ultimatum should not be confused. I also share in your frustration when questions are met with nothing more than a battering ram of Bible passages, as if it is settled that all of us would understand all those in the same way, then becoming an excuse to entirely avoid the question or engage with the questioner.
So maybe ‘gift’ is a misrepresentation? (which I admit I’ve used as a descriptor plenty of times myself.) But to try to grapple with your challenge from a Christian point of view: If your house was burning down, you are trapped inside, and an emergency official appears at the doorway calling out to see if anybody is inside and needs help - I think we would agree that their presence shouldn’t be characterized as a ‘gift’ (though perhaps it might be), but more importantly, we wouldn’t see it as an ultimatum - though it may have the same effect as one. Perhaps that analogy fits better for what the gospels are … with its own shortcomings too of course.
Here is an example of an ultimatum. A society makes a law that says if you rape and murder someone you will be executed. The society says “If you don’t break this law, we the people will be on friendly terms with you the individual but if you do break this law our friendship is broken and you will die”.
.
Now the society has established another law that says “If another individual is kind enough to take your place at the execution and you are willing to accept him taking your place, then he will take your name and the guilt of your crime and he will be executed. Then you will take his name, his innocence and you will go out as a freeman. But if you don’t want to take advantage of that law then you must be executed for your own guilt of the crime you committed.”
Ultimately the choice is yours.
A just death for your own guilty action or the free gift of freedom by someone taking your place.
Hopefully, you can understand that many non-believers don’t really see themselves as analogous to murderer/rapists who deserve death though, so this whole explanation of God’s justice kind of falls flat.
I think your analogy is a little off. Try this; My house isn’t on fire, I see no evidence that it is on fire and no one has demonstrated that it is on fire. But an emergency official appears and says believe me when I tell you that your house is on fire and the only way to save yourself is to have me live with you and you must do what I say or I will let your house burn. So people who believe the official now live in constant fear of their house burning. They dare not do anything that might make the official angry. Oh, and the best part? The official tells you that if you don’t accept his ‘gift’ of staying in your house and protecting you from the fire, he will come at some point and burn it down anyway. I believe that is a more apt analogy.
A death would be just fine but that is not what you believe. You believe that I deserve eternal torture for simply not believing the same things you do. Why should I worship a Deity that says that is a ‘gift’?
I try to fill my posts with the scripture because it is by the Word of God that everyone will be judged. It is the Word that has the power to convict the world of righteousness, sin and judgement to come. It is the Word that has the power to save those lost in sin. But if we reject the Word we reject God. The message of the cross of Christ is foolishness to those who will not believe so does that mean we should not proclaim the cross to the world? By no means, for it is the power of God unto salvation. God does not change the message because many wicked and unbelieving people reject it.
The fact that unbelievers don’t see themselves in that way does not change the fact they are.Was that not what we who say we believe were before we put our confidence in Jesus and much more than just murders and adulterers. Jesus said if you look at a woman to lust after her you have already committed adultery and if you have hatred in your heart for your neighbor you have committed murder. Jesus the Word of God proclaimed this message as the message of the Kingdom of God. The fact that many people do not put their confidence in the words of Jesus does not nullify them. Jesus said that He did not come to judge the world but to bring them life, His commands are life eternal. But He also said what will judge us on the Day of Judgement, it will be the very words that He spoke.