All I’m saying is that different metaphors in the Bible resonate with different people. The whole “guilt/innocence” paradigm is shifting in American culture to the point where a message focused so much on sin and judgment and court room metaphors is clearly not communicating the gospel as well as other messages and metaphors that are equally biblical. Nobody cares about judgment if they don’t have an internal sense of guilt, so all the hammering away at “you’re a sinner whether you admit it or not” is just obnoxious noise to them. The gospel is supposed to be good news to the hearers. If the way you present it is heard as terrible news that no one wants to hear about, then you haven’t contextualized it appropriately for your audience. This is a basic principle of missiology.
The gift is being made safe from that just judgement. People reject loving God because they want to continue in the things they know are wrong, they don’t want to submit to doing what is good. They enjoy the thoughts and acts of their immoral sexual behavior. They want the right to continue in their hatred towards those they consider their enemies, they love to covet or crave the things of this world. They reject what is good and right to hold on to what is wicked. Basically they want to be their own god rather than submit to the true God.
Non of my statements are trying to create a “GOT YA”, they are expressed with concern for peoples lives and to bring honor to God.
This is true. Many feel justified because they are not murders, thieves, fornicators ect. They say "I pay my taxes, have never cheated on my wife, never took anything from anyone ect. So Jesus comes preaching the Kingdom of Heaven and says “do not lust, do not covet, do not hate your enemies ect”. This was done to convict mankind of their sins of the heart and so they that who were, “poor in spirit, who mourn (over their sins), who where meek, who hunger and thirst after righteousness, who where merciful, who were pure in heart, who were peacemakers” would have what he said they would have in Math 5. He also let them know they would be hated and persecuted and killed for loving and obeying God but even in that they would be BLESSED.
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth — to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” We would all do well to believe and obey this message.
Whenever I hear that sentiment expressed I always think this person is trying to serve a warrant on me so that I will be compelled to appear in judgement court. I don’t think scripture has this power any more than I think there will be a ‘judgement day’. I find my conscience keeps up much more frequently than that, tending to convict me on the spot more often. It is rather naive to think anyone in this culture has not heard passages from the bible before. Passing them around with the hope of helping God identify the ones for burning is kind of yucky. I wonder if God loves a snitch?
Your conscience convicts you of doing wrong but if everything exists by mere natural means than there is no right or wrong. Atoms alone can not create good or evil, whether they are in a rock or your brain. But mankind knows they have done wrong but since it cant be against atoms it has to be against some actual law giver. But some may say, “I have done wrong against societies standards” so what, just another group of atoms. Atoms do not created right and wrong. Who God is, His very nature is what reveals right and wrong.
Sort of goes along with our pastor’s sermon series on ethical evangelism. Basically, he advocates evangelism that is Spirit led, based on love and a desire to respect and be of benefit to the one you are sharing with, and springing from your own Christian experience. I probably butchered that, but if interested can listen to his summary sermon here:
Yep. That’s why I clarified: “…from a Christian perspective”. There is little sense in Christians trying to convince people of a need they simply don’t see. Something is wrong if a physician prowls the community trying to convince people that they are sick. For those who can’t imagine themselves in such a scenario, the analogy will fail to engage.
And certainly the whole threat of the ostensible “savior” coming back to burn the house down later if compliance isn’t forthcoming is an even more atrocious departure from reality yet. If that was the way God was, I would hope that I had the strength and courage to reject such a figure too.
Would you say the same of the sensation of sweet? Does my thinking it came to exist by mere natural means imply that there isn’t really anything sweet? We have lots of words for qualities we experience subjectively and I don’t think any of them require theism. Moral experience is one of these.
This back and forth could go on forever. But God has made it plain to those who have an ear to hear. So I will use the Word of God as an end all statement.
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
Jesus said "do not lust, do not hate your enemies and ect. and what ever is included in,
Matt 22:37 Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
This is the good news of God and if you do this you will enter into life everlasting.
So you don’t believe Jesus will come back in judgement? Or you don’t believe Hell is the final punishment for non-believers?
The righteous and holy God who hates evil and by His nature must condemn it and separate it from His presence, sends His son Jesus into the world to warn us of the condemnation on us because of our rebellion, but then supplies the way through Jesus for us to be reconciled to Him. It is neither strength or courage that causes one to reject Him, it is lack of understanding that leads to believing a lie.
Said with truth and love.
@Cody_G (sorry, @JES10, I replied to you by mistake).
I’d like to step in a minute, if you don’t mind. The simple argument that those who don’t believe will go to Hell misses a whole lot of justice. There are many who would not believe, but are not rebellious–those who haven’t heard, who don’t or can’t understand, for example.
It’s more clear when we get the shoe on the other foot. Have you ever, for example, spoken with a fundamentalist of any non-Christian religion (eg, Islam) where they have told you you are going to hell for not believing their creed? They are quite certain if we don’t say the “kalima” (word of belief), we are lost. If that were indeed the case, and all non-Muslims are going to Hell, what argument would you give the Muslim God his answer that we are all sinners, and deserve to go to Hell?
It doesn’t seem very just in that way. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you, and you are saying something else.
I am a Christian, and I grew up as the son of missionaries in a very Muslim area of West Africa. The neighbors who lived with were very kindly; but they did believe that.
I have come to accept that God is much better than my own Christlike parents. He is always willing to teach us, but would never judge us for what we couldn’t help.
Thanks.
Warning, multiple scriptures will follow! Read them carefully.
I have wondered more about that little tribe on an island way off somewhere more than a Muslim. With Muslims they have access to Moses, they teach he was a prophet, they say they honor the prophets and Jesus. From my understanding they believe that Jesus was just a prophet though, not the Son of God. They don’t believe he died but believe he ascended to heaven without dying.
The word of God has prophecies throughout it that are very specific to the Lord. Since they do honor Moses they have the Law and it is the Law that speaks of Jesus. John 5:39 “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 16:27 "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 "‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Acts 26:I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."
So since they have the Word of God available and God is willing to teach anyone that seeks Him in humility then they are without excuse. Jesus said, Matt 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.”
What humanity does not have to depend on is just his own ability to know God. God has said creation is a witness of Him and He is not far from any of us. His desire is for us to know Him. Acts 14:16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” God has always inserted Himself into the affairs of mankind. Abraham did not know God until God revealed Himself to Him and to any who humbly seek the true God they will find Him.
The statement below is from Paul as he was speaking to Gentile unbelievers, heathen.
Acts 17: Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)¶ 22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
So whether it is a Muslim or the heathen on an island out in the ozone, it is the Father we put our trust in to reveal Himself to us, “ though he be not far from every one of us:”
Matt 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.”
I hope this has been some help to you.
[I removed this post due to its personal confessional, and potentially controversial, but not science-related material. Others are welcome to continue discussing it, but I will probably endeavor to keep my own involvement more on a private-messaging side than on public display here. You know how to reach me if you want more input from me on such topics.]
Randy, I had more history come to mind of God’s interaction with the nations that did not hear his word first hand.
Gen 6:5 The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
All the people of Noah’s time would probably not heard Noah if he was preaching repentance and faith towards God. And yet God destroyed them for their wickedness.
Gen 18:20 Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous. Gen 19:12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here — sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.” 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah — from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities
I will bring up Egypt and Moses, even though the pharaoh did have the word of God proclaimed to him. The side point being that God judges the people of the nations who reject Him.
In reference to the Amalekites he tellsMoses.
Ex 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” 15 Moses built an altar and named it The Lord is My Banner; 16 and he said, “The Lord has sworn; the Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation.”
Deut 25:17 "Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt, 18 how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God. 19 "Therefore it shall come about when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your surrounding enemies, in the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget.
And God continues His judgment on people and nations throughout history. All the nations in the land that God promised Abraham he drove out because of their wickedness, they did the things that it speaks of in Romans. They worshiped the creature rather than the creator and then He commands the Israelites not to follow their ways or he would drive them out also, which He ended up doing.
He brought judgment onto Babylon and multiple city states. A good read through the prophets will show multiple times that God condemned people and nations and then executed His righteous judgment on them.
It is certain that He dealt out just punishment to Israel throughout their history.
This is the scripture that clarifies why he can justly judge and execute His righteous penalty on the people who may never hear the Word of God. Well worth a slow and prayerful reading.
Rom 1:118 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Again, I hope this is helpful.
Mervin,
It is never my intent to portray myself as better than others. My only goal is to reveal the Father and the Son and to emanate that which Paul said, “it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.” I am very aware that the opposite could happen if I become lukewarm, as Paul said, 1 Cor 9:24 “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
As I stated before, I try to quote the Word of God a lot because, Heb 4:12: For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. “
In the end Jesus will get all the glory, either by my loving obedience or (may it not be so) by His just condemnation of me.
His just … and loving condemnation of the sin that would separate you from him (and separate you from everybody else too). Justice and love must be one seamless whole. My fallible understanding of God, such as it is right now, is that God does not step into different offices - or wear different hats. God’s justice must be loving, and God’s love must be just. Always 100% of both in everything and for all time.
I think you are quite right (and I admire it) to place yourself trustingly into the hands of God to do with you as needs to be done. To me, such trust signifies that you have come to know Him in such a way that you know will ultimately be goodness and love - and you trust it to be so. I too am learning … ever haltingly so … and with ever more awareness of what I have yet to learn about what it means to become an obedient follower of Christ.
Thanks, Cody, for your time, and your effort and good intent for help. I sincerely appreciate it.
Interesting discussion. It’s not really helpful to argue that others are condemned from Scripture, though, as Muslims will argue the same against us. There are specific Qur’anic verses that condemn the lack of belief. Because they are written in the Bible, how are we to argue against what is written in the Qur’an? Is it right for Muslims to condemn us as doomed to Hell because we are not perfect, and have not believed Muhammad was God’s prophet?
You are correct that they believe in Moses (Musa), Jesus (Isa), and the Prophets. Yet, the Qur’an mixes a bit of Biblical truth with what we would call falsehood. As you know, that makes it appear much stronger. They accept much of what we do, but in such a way that they reject the core doctrines.
What about Melchizedek, a high priest that Abraham gave gifts to, as a high priest, yet was outside the covenant?
George Macdonald, my favorite author who influenced C S Lewis to convert to Christianity, wrote, “If it be said by any that God does a thing which seems to me unjust, then either I do not know what the thing is, or God does not do it…Least of all must we accept some low notion of justice in a man, and argue that God is just in doing after that notion.”
We can focus on God’s character through the Sermon on the Mount, and the good representations of Jesus Christ that we do understand. He was the exact representation of the Father.
Thanks.
Heb 7:1 “This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High.” When Abraham gave gifts to him Melchizedek blessed him, “Heb 7:7 And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.”
Hebrews explains him and his priesthood. The covenant that was made with Abraham resulted in the Law and the Levitical priesthood. but Melchizedek’s priesthood was superior to the the Levitical priesthood, so much so that Jesus was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek’s priesthood thereby doing away with the priesthood that came through Abraham. The covenant of circumcision of the foreskin that God with Abraham was in the flesh but the covenant that God made through Jesus was a circumcision of the heart.
So just as the priesthood of Melchizedek which was given to Jesus is greater than what came from Abraham, so is the circumcision of the spirit greater than the circumcision which was made in the body.
Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are — yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Heb 5:4 No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
Jesus the Son Of God is our High Priest of a new and better covenant. The only way to the Father is through that priest, the Word/Jesus, The Only Begotten Son Of God.
Randy,
It is good for a believer to study the Word of God along the line of prophecies that point to the coming deliverer and how Jesus fulfilled them. A Google search would be a good start. Not only to be able to show to others that Jesus fulfilled them but to strengthen your trust that Jesus is the coming deliverer. God laid out specific future events about the deliver so that when he came he could be recognized. Since the record of the scriptures is over many years and the things recorded were by different people years apart it solidifies that a person fulfilling the prophecies would be the deliverer.
The prophecies start in Genesis, Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." God gives a very specific one in, Zech 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Isaiah 53 is all about Jesus. Zech 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” and Zech 13. Many prophecies that Jesus fulfilled show that the scripture is the Word of God in contrast to other religions books.
Then you have the new covenant (contract) that is created by the deliverers coming, it is far superior to any laws or covenants of religion that man or other supposed gods can make. Even the Law of Moses could not circumcise our spirits from the flesh, it was weak because of our flesh but God destroyed the power of the flesh by the offering of the Son of God. Hanging on the cross He was the Second Adam, through Him the First Adam (us) was killed and by His resurrection we are regenerated, born again and raised to a new life. “I no longer live but Christ lives in me.”
This new covenant in the blood will circumcise our spirit from the flesh. It will separate who we are from the sinful nature of the flesh. It gives us a high priest that lived without sin (no one else has done that) who is now seated at the right hand of God in heaven interceding for us. By his blood it gives us forgiveness of sin and by His resurrection it gives us power over sin and death.
The Jews had the Law but it could not deliver from sin, the Muslims have their book but it cannot deliver them from sin. The Word of God points to Jesus who can actually deliver us from sin. The Muslims have their book but only the Son of God (they say God has no son) whose coming was foretold in the Word of God, brought the New Covenant in His blood which has actual power to separate you from sin.
When talking to Muslims or anyone, you are not trying to win an argument, you are giving them the Word of God and if that person is humble and sees their sin and wants deliverance, then they will see that the cross of Christ is their salvation. It is the Word and Spirit of God that convicts the world of sin and the meek will receive it.
We are to sow the seed but it is God who brings the increase. Our trust is not in ourselves but in the power of God’s Word. The same Word that raised Jesus from the dead.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.