Then you reject a lot in the New Testament and not nothing related in the Old. But we’ve talked about this before: The Christian’s Confidence.
I reject a lot of nonsensical literal treatments of the text… it is true. The earth is not flat or a table with pillars holding it up. But I think in buying into the literal/extreme treatment of some it its text you also reject other other things in the Bible (as well as other things which are essential for me to believe the Bible and Christianity have any value at all). To sum it up, I think we can take it for granted that we make sense of the text in different ways. And perhaps it is more important in our response to @jonnobody that answers are possible even if Christians don’t always agree on what they are.
Do you reject “Born again”? Jesus said we must be. And no, of course we are not talking about the physical and ‘literally’.
John 3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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Whether you wish to believe it or not, that is almost certainly the reason it is there. So we return to whether Jesus actually prayed the prayer in the first place. I am, of course, going out on a limb to reject the prayer as being genuine (or at least to suggest it)
How Scripture is understood is clearly central to the flavour of faith you hold.
What I said here would probably not pass my lips in a pulpit.
Richard
Nor this:Or freedom in general. It occurs to me that the theory of evolution is an argument that God values freedom immensely!
I was just reading some in the church Fathers and kept noticing some of the very same arguments Heiser uses – not surprising, since Heiser regularly said “Mike never had an original thought in his life”.
Here I thought that was an outline of Utnapishtim’s Ark.
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Calvinist beliefs state that humans are incapable of goodness without God (and that includes his working in non-believers), and that no human action is perfect enough to earn salvation, not that all human actions are bad. Most confusion that I have seen elsewhere on this sort of issue is due to shifts in word meaning since the Westminster Confession was written, e.g., “total” seems to have been more like “in all parts” than “completely”. Thus, “Total Depravity” means “all human action is tainted by sin such that none can earn salvation”, and not “all human actions are sinful”.
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Having an abundance of engineers in my extended family, I have to say that’s a very simplistic concept of design!
Or, is it a human trying to understand God and being limited by both worldview and human language.
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Yes – according to Jesus, it was the plan all along. Paul says the very same thing.
And reading the Gospels in the light of that, and of Paul’s comment that “they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory” if they had known the plan, brings light to a number of things (including how Jesus responded to the Adversary’s temptations).
The writer to the Hebrews would disagree, as would Paul, and in fact Jesus said it was "necessary.
And death – which He overcame by dying.
Wow – that shows a definite lack of awareness. For comparison, I will point out the six hundred thousand and some square feet of just the theological library of a university in Minnesota where Roman Catholic monks run the place.
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
Calvin’s Christology, as revealed in his soteriology, sucked.
LOL LOL LOL
I am well aware of how much is written.
But as an estimate of the percentage of God which that represents as understanding, I would put it around 0%.
Humans would not even exist without God. And yes I believe God is not only fully engaged in our lives but that His inspiration rains down upon us in a torrent. Without this inspiration there would be nothing recognizable as a human being let alone humans doing good. The point is that people do respond to that inspiration and do things which are good and which God appreciates. Sin most certainly gets in the way, but its power over us is not absolute. The biggest problem is its degenerative nature tearing down our freedom of will and goodness within us. Unless it is removed there is no hope.
So you believe salvation could be earned if only people could do things which were good enough?
I don’t believe that. I think that is a seriously flawed understanding of what sin and salvation are really about.
Frankly I think this is connected with bogus ideas that the good things people do don’t count for anything if they are not Christian. This is nonsense. Christianity is not about getting free pass indulgences for sin so that being Christian is all that matters. Paul writes that God “will render to each one according to his works.” And thus I believe there is no escape from the consequences of our actions. Whether we are in heaven or in hell, we will have good reason to regret every bad thing we have done and good reason to be grateful for every good thing we have done. Heaven and hell are not reward and punishment for our deeds but a completely different issue, about whether we are willing to change and thus accept the help of God to do so.
And also considering the Eternal Conscious Torment aka Hell, that this God created, problem of evil and suffering becomes even more pronounced.
But that is not an issue for an argument against theism. It is only an argument against a portion of Christianity. Many Christians like myself do not believe that God created hell. And many others do not believe in eternal conscious torment.
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The problem with Calvinism is that it then goes on to claim that some people are automatically destined for Heaven or Hell no matter what they do. On that basis why would anyone try and be good? If I am going to be damned I might as well get some selfish pleasure out of it.
Richard
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Very troubling for sure. Infinite torture for finite crimes, believing and worshipping someone who tortures people forever… lots of problems here. But as @mitchellmckain this is not a problem for theism, or many Christians. Some Christians soften hell. It’s locked from from the inside though I’m not sure how that helps since letting someone hurt themselves for eternity does not seem good or just. Mercy might dictate putting them out of their misery!
But I can quote a plethora of scripture in favor of typical hell, the same for limited hell then annihilation, for straight up annihilation and to top it off, I can find a good deal of support for universal salvation as well. We can then talk about all these words in their ancient context which is illuminating.
At the end of the day, we know a lot less about the afterlife than we think we do. Love isn’t about rolling over for treats and belly rubs or conforming out of fear of torture. Neither of those are love. God has a lot to offer everyone. It’s more of a “not believing” or “not having a personal relationship with God” is missing out— in this life— whatever the nature of heaven and hell may be.
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No, and that is the point. No human action could be good enough to earn salvation.
But, if what they do is a response to the Spirit’s work in their lives, then that would likely greatly affect what they do.
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
Also, how could one know absolutely whether one is predestined for salvation or not?
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Quoting that makes no difference. It is not about sinning to increase salvation it is about not caring because everything is predestined If you are going to be saved a little self indulgence will do no harm, and if you are going to Hell anyway then you may as well enjoy whaile you can.
It still doesn’t matter! We just live for the moment. There is no point in panicking over something that is beyond our control.
. Christianity, or any religion for that matter, has little value if it is not beneficial in this life, and to society as a whole. Claiming that this life is of no value means that we need not try at all. It becomes a waste of four score years and ten , or whatever years we are given.
Probably over 90% or Scripture is about social (ant-social) behaviour, be it recording it, or criticising it, or prmoting it… Even the Psalms assume a certain level of behaviour, or religiousness.
Richard
No the point is that salvation is not about being good enough.
We ARE capable of genuine good. And the fact that this cannot save us has nothing to do with it not being good enough.
Heaven and hell are not about rewards and punishment required by justice. An infinite punishment for finite misdeeds is not justice. But I don’t think that means there is no hell or eternal torment, because I don’t think justice has anything to do with it. It is about choice and the simple fact that sin creates hell wherever it goes.
Some seem to have this absurd notion that being good and just means forcing people to do what you think is best for them. That isn’t goodness or justice or love. That is just a power trip. Tyranny for Jesus isn’t the kingdom of heaven any more than lying for Jesus is doing the will of God. It is the transformation of children into pets, so they will never be anything more than mindless sheep incapable of love or goodness like the eloi of H. G. Well’s Time Machine.
Yes.
That is only half of it.
The idea that sin is just a barrier between man and God is flawed. And Jesus proved it wrong anyway by associating with sinners. God doesn’t have a problem with sinners. And I don’t even think it is correct to make sin all about offending God.
Sin is self-destructive all by itself. Sure it can be a barrier between us and God but not because God cannot abide it. No the problem is that when we are avoiding all responsibility (which is the nature of sin) then it is too easy to push all the blame for everything on God. This is frankly the essence of the philosophical problem of evil. It is the best argument against God because if we are going to push all the responsibility for evil on God then it is better if God doesn’t exist.
I agree with you more than you might think. I really only believe in the spiritual stuff because I see it all happening in the world. I don’t think existence after death changes things as much as many people might suppose. I think for the most part it is just more of the same.
I think one is really misguided if one thinks death will let one escape ones problems. No I don’t believe God is so sadistic that He will resurrect the suicide so that He can torment that person forever. I think there is difference. I think it is like running towards an icy surface and in death the resistance we have from natural law ends and we continue on endless under the momentum of our choices with nothing slow us down.
No. I don’t think so.
A lot of it is about the goodness of God and how worthy He is of our attention and love.
A lot of it is about thought and attitude rather than behavior.
A lot of it is just telling history or laws.
And a good portion of it is theology.
Sounds to me… like you are reading the Bible with some heavy blinders on, so you only see the parts about social behavior.
To be sure the parts about social behavior are important. I think it makes it pretty clear that God measures our love for Him by how we treat each other.
@Vinnie @SuperBigV @Dale @mitchellmckain
The so-called Problem of Evil is one of those things you can talk a good game about. You can bring up suffering children, sickness, torture, earthquakes, hell…
But then you have to take all those things and you have to say them to Christ on the Cross, right to his face.
Some talk as if they believe God is evil and worthy of punishment.
Indeed, he has heard that before.
“Crucify him” they said.
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