As long as you promise to struggle at least as much with all those ongoing atrocities being perpetrated today too. We can labor against it together.
And as you can see, spouting off here is much more fun than fixing the bathroom toilet.
Yea I changed my mind after @Socratic.Fanatic told me what chattel slavery is. Big mistake for me to side with the OP. I just don’t feel comfortable with how heated the discussion is.
@Mervin_Bitikofer I really like your tone. I think you’re fair and good at conversation
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Thanks, Than_C. Off to those other tasks for the moment. I do hope to check back later today.
You are almost as atheist as I am as you don’t believe in most of the gods of history and those worshipped today. And I am pretty sure that you would describe Allah and the Hindu gods as “false gods”. And I don’t think your a believer in the Angel Moran. So I would say that you are a 99% atheist. I just go one God further, or maybe three gods further depending how you count The Holy Spirit.
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Assuming the slave was in Mississippi or Arkansas… unlikely he’d make it that far as a black person without being detained.
No, you didn’t see where I was going. I think you should look up the fallacy. It goes like this, in your case, in my words.
Good Christian: We Christians eradicated that god two thousand years ago.
Bad atheist: He’s the god of Franklin Graham.
Good Christian: Well, then he’s not a Good Christian.
Now I hope it is clear that I just picked one example of someone who follows a monstrous god. I could have picked examples from this very forum, in which your fellow Christians are defending atrocities that would make ISIS proud, or are effusively praising a god who falsifies evidence and vanishes in a poof when a natural explanation is shown to be true. I suppose that these are some of the gods who you claim that you “eradicated” before the first tumultuous councils wrote the first creeds. Come on, Mervin, some of us actually do know religious history.
You are writing in a time of Christian addiction to fake news and on a forum that includes multiple followers of the very gods you wish were extinct. Instead of blaming atheists for showing you these uncomfortable facts, consider taking a little responsibility for the problems in your “community.” Or at the very least, stop pretending that the Wrong Gods were ever vanquished by the Good Christians. That’s a joke.
I never condoned the killing of children… I explained the Hebrew words definition as regarding anyone under 20 years old, 18 year olds are not children. Also, I explained that “utterly destroy” and other such phrases were used an stock expressions of totality and were not literally carried out, anyone with an understanding of Hebrew culture would understand.
Non-combatants were most likely not killed, as I’ve said earlier. Please, do not put words into my mouth again.
I don’t need to “put words in your mouth.” I can just quote you. And I can quote Deuteronomy and Leviticus and Numbers 31. Then I can ask you just one question: Did the god of the Israelites command them to commit war crimes?
Considering your view of biblical slavery and servitude, its obvious you’ve adopted aspects of American chattel slavery and assumed it was similar to Hebrew slavery and servitude. Which is incorrect, considering the two institutions are entirely different and done for entirely different purposes.
As a side note, through our discussions I hope you haven’t seen me as a bad person or as condoning slavery of any kind. As I’ve told Christy, I don’t think biblical slavery was the best system, no where near the best system. I think it was most likely implemented because of the hardness of the Israelites hearts, especially considering all verses on it were regulations and not commands and orders to purchase slaves. I’ve enjoyed our conversations and I’ve learned a lot, I’ve learned a lot from Patrick also. I’m just here to learn in the long run.
I would never condone the execution killing of my 33 year old child to atone for the crimes/sins of others. It would be moral reprehensible in these times. a crime against humanity if such a human sacrifice were done today.
By saying that I “took the side of God on the murder of children”, which I never did. As displayed in my explanation of the Hebrew term, the “little ones” were anyone under 20, not exclusively innocent children. Quote whatever you’d like, I’ll do my utmost best to explain the quotations.
Did the God of the Israelites command them to commit war crimes?
Define “war crimes”.
Such as peoples 33 year old children going and dying in the military to save and protect American citizens? Peoples 33 year old children in Law Enforcement and Fire Fighting, whom die to protect and save people daily?
It seems Christ saved everyone through His actions, yet He’s depicted as a victim of divine child abuse (He laid His life down voluntarily), but when soldiers, police and firemen die to save others, they’re heroes. Weird.
I thought you were arguing that the murder of children was justified on national security grounds. If instead you agree with me that this is an atrocity, then great. Sorry for the confusion.
I hope you don’t believe that you can justify the killing of children by saying that some of them were 19. That’s indefensible. As you know.[quote=“David1, post:93, topic:35129”]
Define “war crimes”.
[/quote]
Look them up yourself. You and I both know that the passages in question order the Israelites to commit atrocities. I have only one question for you, and I would understand if you did not want to answer it. Did god order these things or not?
Its not an atrocity because they weren’t children.
You think its immoral to kill a 19 year in war? Try killing a 19 year old Middle Easterners parents (whom were fighting you in battle), and then allowing him to sleep in your camp with your family. See how harmless he is then.
I fail to notice any war crimes, which is why I asked for a definition. Perhaps that will help me find where any of these orders are “atrocities”.
People joining the military or volunteering to be fire fighter or first responders do so to serve/help other people. They do so with a greater purpose in mind. service to one’s country or one’s neighbors. Very noble reason.
Converse this with offering your son up for human sacrifice to atone for sins/crimes against your ego. That is clearly immoral, whether your an all powerful God or not.
This is an appalling misrepresentation of the very texts you are quoting. Your responses seek to justify the killing of children by saying that it is okay to kill 19-year-olds, who are also in the category.
Your comments are indefensible. I hope you don’t really believe the things you claim to believe. And you are refusing to answer my question. If you don’t think that the actions described in Numbers 31 are atrocities, then you are utterly morally crippled. And there’s just no way that this is an accurate description of you.
We can’t converse anymore because you and I either don’t share the most basic assumptions about moral conduct, or because you are too afraid to address the atrocities that are falsely attributed to your god. You may have the final word in this creepy conversation.
Christ voluntarily offered Himself to atone for the evil we humans commit, which cannot go with being judged (or God wouldn’t be Just). Christ wasn’t forced against His will. He chose to do so. And, as I’m sure you know some Christians (like myself) believe, Christ was God. So God sacrificed Himself, not an unwilling and terrified child.
Jesus offered himself to atone for crimes/sins against God who was himself. He had to do this because he had to. Still seems unnessary. And more immoral as it was required self sacrifice of yourself to appease yourself for sins that didn’t damage you as an all prefect invisible and impervious entity. Why couldn’t God keep being invisible as in the first 13.8 billion years of history?
Of course we don’t have the same moral conduct, atheists can’t even justify moral conduct in the first place.
But, nonetheless, I’ll look past your inability to concede to the actually definition of “little ones” and your ad hominem, and tell you the truth: I’ve appreciated our conversation and your time.
I didn’t refuse to answer anything, you never gave me a definition to work off of… I don’t see any atrocities. War is not pretty, it is not sunshine and rainbows, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. God did not order the slaughter of a bunch of three year old boys, as much as you’d like to think so, that’s just not what the text says. Anywho, I hope you have a lovely evening/morning. Ta ta.
God didn’t atone for sins to cause some kind of inner pleasure for Himself, it was so we human could enter into His Kingdom, something we cannot do if plagued by evil. So, as a Just deity, someone has to be punished for the evil committed. So God took it onto His shoulders to offer us a chance to enter His Kingdom.
Because homo sapiens weren’t around for the first 13.8 billion years of history, God had no reason to be visible. Maybe He showed Himself to a group of deer, but how would we know?