Another Thread on Miracles (Lee Strobel book)

No, I can’t explain the difference. I am sure that many people have theories on the topic, while I find the working of the Holy Spirit powerful and mysterious and doubt humans can fully understand it.

As for the passages in 1 and 2 Timothy, what contradiction did you think that you saw? I see none, and I note these are specific exhortations to Timothy rather than general rules about how things occur.

There are still unbelievers that need proof, especially in areas where the gospel is news and Christians are rare. I have seen many reports of miracles from such places, many from the Jesus Film Project.

Thanks for engaging.

Thank you for your post on dreams.

God still does speak to people in dreams, but few dreams are from God. Just because a person “wants” a dream to be from God does not make it a dream from God. And the fact that some people attribute dreams incorrectly to God does not mean God never speaks to people in dreams.

My wife has had two prophetic dreams. They came to her for protection. In both dreams, she was in an area she did not recognize at the time and was brutally attacked. Later she found herself in those place, places she had never been before, and remembered the dreams and took different actions.

I was with her once when she arrived in the location and immediately recalled the horror of the dream when she recognized the place from her dream. She had never even been in that state before. This was on the campus of Auburn University in 1981. As soon as we drove on the campus she recognized it from the dream. As a result, she did not take the baby and walk back from the football game to the hotel the following weekend. That walk back had been when she was attacked in the dream. The miracle was that she clearly saw the distinctive attributes of Auburn University in a dream without ever being there before and dreaming a football game and specific events.

I have another story about a dream from 1980. My wife went to nursing school with a woman we knew in high school. Some time after graduation, my wife and I headed to my Army training in Arizona. We heard that the woman’s husband had abandoned her pregnant and with two small children already. She was in financial difficulty, to say the least. She went to live with her mother. She did not know us that well, and she had no idea that we were in Arizona.

We felt we should send her some money, and we mailed her $350. That was a more substantial sum back in 1980. While the check was in the mail, she had a dream that she received a letter with money in it from Arizona. She told her mother about it and said “and I don’t know anybody in Arizona.” Then the letter came.

She had pride and did not want to cash the check. Her wise mother told her, “God sent you money and sent you dream to tell you to take it. How can you turn that down?”

But God doesn’t heal everyone. Jesus probably had to step over many sick people to get to the one He healed at the pool near the temple. And God doesn’t send everyone dreams. But those of us willing to see that He still works miracles do see miracles.

I have another story about the prophetic utterance my wife spoke at a critical time, but this post is long enough for now.

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I don’t see a contradiction between the two letters. I obviously answered it in the previous post I already sent.

Does not require crazy theories to answer the differences. The gospels and epistles lay it out.

My point was this. You seem to think it’s super clear cut and that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I do. Its clear you should really research all those questions and study the subject out and then maybe discuss it. There are writings outside of the gospel for 2,000 years in this. Early Church fathers have even wrote all about it.

One clue is the fact Jesus states not everyone who says lord lord will be saved and on that day they will say but we did this and that in your name ( miracles) and yet he never knew them. The power of the Holy Spirit is not related to salvation at all. Just the indwelling. I’m not going to be responding after this until I’m able to do the separate posts on subjects that are necessary to understand laying on of hands.

Hebrews 6:1-3
New American Standard Bible

6 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.

Washings and laying on of hands is a foundational teaching. So many don’t understand it nowadays and that’s why their theology is not truly systematic. They jump into solid food when they still don’t even know how to drink the milk.

Actually, I have been studying it for many decades.

I look forward to your posting the scriptures that you think say that miracles have ceased.

And I will be interested in your opinion of when miracles ceased. Some cessationists choose the death of the last of the original apostles of Jesus, others choose the finalization of the canon, there may be other positions.

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What about miracles of providence? You’ve heard me enough times about Maggie :grin:, and Rich Stearns.

I don’t actually know their stories. If someone thinks they have the signs of the apostles as shown by the power of Holy Spirit. So no speaking in tongues, no healing the sick , not resurrection, no prophecies, no casting out demons, no picking up venomous snakes or drinking poison and so no laying on kfnjands.

The stories are posted here at Biologos at those links (they’re short :slightly_smiling_face:). They both contain miracles of God’s providence, but they are not of the sort you specifically disallow. I will not exclude God’s working in other ways, though. I should reread Metaxas’ book. (I don’t remember if speaking in tongues was in it – I’m sure there was a vision and a healing in it.) I agree about prophecies, snakes and poison.

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It is quite remarkable that humans have invented language to transfer information from one brain to another using words. Your use of ‘representative’ instead of ‘image’ illustrates the difficulty two individuals may have in expressing emotion-arousing ideas to each other. The N.T. appears to quote Jesus as claiming both (1) “the Father and I are One”; and (2) “the Father is greater than I”. You are much more aware than I of the amount of exegetical effort has been expended to reconcile these two views. I have given up on any attempt to reconcile them intellectually , and remain content to rely on my life’s experience that God is a God of Love, whatever form He takes.

Hope you and your family stays well.
Al Leo

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actually wonder what happened that made me abandon this thread back in 2019. Wonder if it was Covid or just Christmas.

To ask something in the name of Jesus clearly does not mean to add this phrase on the end of a prayer - as so many do - but to ask for anything that Jesus would have asked for. To do things in someone’s name does not mean to do one’s own thing and say “and this is in his name”, but to do what he would have done.
And when it comes to the efficacy of prayer, only someone who thinks of him/herself as God to change reality according to one’s wishes instead of praying to God to help us to make reality progress according to his wishes.

I love the video of Marshall Brain about the 10 Questions every intelligent Christian should answer as it addresses the materialists thinking about the materialistic understanding of prayer and healing. It is when you watch amputees like in Prince Harry’s Heroes or watch Nick Vujicic that you would as yourself who is in need of healing or get an idea what healing is about.

So the next time we pray for the healing of a loved one, let us not pray for God to do what we wish for but for us to do what God wishes for.

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Part of this discussion makes me think of the contention with Jesus saying “we are all gods” as opposed to the verses he was quoting which is from psalms 82:6 which seems to be about angels. So guess it depends on how someone is defining god.

One friend of mine, a retired pastor, has often drawn attention to the way how believers try to command God. Instead of just asking and blessing, the prayers seem too often to be commands where God is told how He should act. I am convinced that those praying think they are asking, not knowingly trying to command God, but the prayers sound like commands to God (‘Lord, do this’). That does not sound good.

I have noted and experienced that the way how God answers to prayers is often different than the way we had in mind when we prayed. There is a need, followed by a prayer to get an answer to the need. In many cases, we have an idea of how God should give the answer to the need and we may pray that God acts in that way. Instead, God may give an answer to the need in another way - we got what we needed but not as we imagined how God would answer.
After that, we may start to wonder whether we got an answer to our prayer - God gave us what we needed and asked but not in the exact way how we described in the prayer that God should act.

I could tell many examples but here is one:
I was working during a rainy weekend far from inhabited areas. The continuous rain turned the ground soft and my car slid and sank too deep into an agricultural field. I tried to get the car out but had no way to move it. I was far from the closest farm, I had not seen other people during that day and did not have a mobile phone with me. I had a need to get my car to the nearest field road but did not know how to do it.
As a young believer, I decided to pray that God would help. I did not have any good solutions, so I figured the only way to get the heavy car lifted back to the road was that God would send an angel to lift the car. After praying, I thought that if God sends an angel to lift the car, the angel can lift also me with the car, so I went into the car and continued praying.

After less than 15 minutes I heard a knock on the door. There was a man asking if I would need help. A car with several strong men ‘happened’ to drive past along the small field road and after seeing my car stuck, stopped to ask if I needed help. It took the powers of all men and their car to get my car back to the field road.

Was it an answer to my prayer? I had a need, I prayed help for the need and I got it surprisingly fast. I had not seen other people during that rainy weekend day but just after I had prayed, a car with several strong men ‘happened’ to drive past and stop to help. These points suggest that I got an answer to my prayer.
On the other hand, those helping were men, not angels (as far as I could observe). As I did not have a better solution, I prayed that God would send an angel to lift the car. A critical reviewer could say that I did not get exactly what I prayed and therefore, I did not get an answer to my prayer.
Whatever a critical watcher would say, I was thankful and praised God for the help I received.

If God would have sent a shining angel to lift the car, I could claim that it was a miraculous answer to my prayer. But I got the help through humans that ‘happened’ to come just at the needed moment. Help through humans - that cannot be counted as a miraculous answer, can it?

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reminds me of the parable of the drowning man.

I still try to locate a sketch from Dick Brown with Haegar the Horrible where he sits on a log with his son Hamlett watching the sun going down, a sketch in 3 pictures:
the secret of happiness -
is to be satisfied with what you got
so make sure you get enough in time

It was a cutting from our old newspaper that my sister had sent me from home so it was actually the German translation

The correct version would be
The secret of happiness
is to be thankful got what you got

and I wonder what people would think the third picture to be about

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When I was growing up in the church I was taught that we reach God through Jesus which is why that phrase is added to the end of prayers. Was I taught incorrectly, or perhaps remembering incorrectly?

I bet in a lot of church settings, there isn’t this much thought about it - and it’s more just people running with a default assumption that, of course we end a prayer like that because we believe in Jesus. So you are probably remembering what you were taught - though my guess is that in most settings what is taught probably doesn’t go very deep with that. I’m inclined to agree with Marvin or others that we should be thinking of it as us acting on behalf of Christ and therefore trying to want what Christ wants or to be open to the Spirit’s influence to direct us that way.

Just because that would (in my opinion) make a more robust and biblical theology of prayer doesn’t mean that’s how it’s understood, though, - or taught - if it’s taught at all. At its worst it’s probably just a way of publicly declaring that “my prayer is distinguished as a ‘Christian’ prayer since I tacked those words on the end”, and it’s a way of virtue signaling to you that the prayer so-ended checked the right box to make it better than anybody else’s generic prayer that didn’t.

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Just for clarity and completionist’s sake, I now remember John 14:6 being cited as the reasoning behind it.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Even middle aged atheists remember their Sunday School. :wink:

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Well - sure! That verse gets a lot of mileage - but I would say its heavier use would be for soteriology (the question of who all is saved) whereas I was just thinking specifically about the subject of prayer. But far be it from me to think those questions / theologies don’t blend together into one glorious whole in the theologically animated mind.

[To be honest, I hadn’t really thought of that verse as an instruction for how prayer should (or must?) proceed … but maybe that’s just because this middle aged believer isn’t remembering his Sunday school as well as the atheist is!]

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I suspect John 14:13 may be closer to the reason behind it: “Whatever you ask in My name, I will do it so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

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is indeed the important line here. If one reflects upon it one should realise what it means to ask in someone’s name. Quite often we ask for what we want and not how Jesus taught us in “thy will be done” e.g. in asking him to get us to execute what he wants. I always smirk at the intercessory prayers asking God to give wisdom to our politicians that we voted for because of the ridiculous promises they made - instead of voting for wise politicians - particularly if we claim to ask for that in the name of Jesus. Though shall not tempt thy Lord :slight_smile:

“Hired”? That makes me skeptical about the thing from the start.

Seems to me that being paid to pray ruins the whole thing.

As Luther put it, God cannot be bought.

My experience is to the contrary on the first and last. The interesting aspect is that the people involved were not seeking any such thing, God just stepped in.

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We think of “angel” as a class of being, but it is really a job description: someone sent. So you got a set of angels. Were they human? were they heavenly but embodied? No way to know, and no reason to actully care!

That depends on how you define “miracle”.

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