Why There is No Proof of God

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Maybe the answer not being explicit only means we shouldn’t expect a once and final version. Maybe the answer is living and requires we not cease from listening.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I recommend asking the mystery what it thinks.

He has told me fairly articulately, in reality as well as in text, that he delights in me (as a loving Father does a beloved child who loves him back).

In text:

For the LORD takes delight in his people…

In reality:

Here is a sweet example of God’s providence, one among a boatload, his sovereign, immanent, personal and interventionist activity into my life:

    Request and Articulate Reply

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

But I think you underestimate the capacity of the natural world to account for what you experienced.

I think you underestimate the magnitude of the number of co-instants in my life and in his people’s lives over the last two millennia and in scripture.

It may have been Einstein who said, “Coincidence is God’s way of staying anonymous.” Rightly put it is, “Coincidence is one of God’s ways of saying, ‘Here I AM!’” “Co-instants” and “co-instance(s)” are my substitute terms denoting “not a chance!”

I have been keeping a Co-instants Log for over three decades, with retrospective entries for two decades before that (I’m in my early geezerhood), and it has a small multitude of entries. Some are fun, funny, startling, poignant or life-path changing, and there are a lot of them! Not all are easy but all are good.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@Dale

I think you underestimate the magnitude of the number of co-instants in my life

All of which were experienced right here in this world, correct? That you had such instants or that they had great significance to you is not in question, at least by me. It is only the source that is in dispute between us. I remain adverse to creating alternative to this unimaginably vast cosmos for what takes place in our private experience. I think for you, to give it a natural footing feels like a demotion. But that isn’t how I feel about making sense of the instants which I’ve experienced. A natural footing changes nothing except the thoughts in our head.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

I have to leave for a bit… bbl.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I think you underestimate the capacity of the natural world to account for what you experienced.

I think you underestimate the capacity of God, to act not only in individual instances, but in sets or series of otherwise unrelated events that taken one at a time may not seem compelling, but taken collectively impart unmistakable meaning, way beyond believability as mere naturally occurring random ‘coincidences’.

A notable present day example would be that of Rich Stearns and the events that led to his resigning as CEO of Lenox Corporation, maker of high-end dinnerware and other luxurious merchandise, to become the president of World Vision, a large Christian NGO serving to promote the welfare of children around the globe. He elucidates them in his book, The Hole in Our Gospel, winner of the ECPA 2010 Christian Book of the Year Award.

After a nine-month month search, the World Vision board of directors had selected me and offered me the opportunity to become World Vision’s U.S.-based president.
…
I had prayed that God would send someone else to do it-anyone but me. Yet the board (and presumably God) had inexplicably called me…
…
I was sitting in my rather posh corner office one day in 1997 when the phone rang. My good friend Bill Bryce was calling from Massachusetts…
…
Vision’s U.S. president, Bob Seiple had told the board of directors that he wished to leave within the next year and that they should begin the search for a successor. “Wow!” I said. “Now what is World Vision going to do? How do you replace a guy like Bob Seiple?”

Bill paused a moment, then said, “That’s the reason I called.” What he said next was somewhat stunning. He told me that since he first heard of Bob’s decision a couple of weeks earlier, he had been praying that God would lead the right person to take his place. And then he just blurted it out: “Don’t ask me to explain it, but God told me that you are going to be the next president of World Vision.” He went on to say that God didn’t make a habit of speaking to him…

I laughed out loud.
…
About six months after Bill’s “prophecy,” I was again sitting at my desk, this time going through some mail, when I found a handwritten note from one of my Lenox VPs, who worked about twenty minutes down the road, in the collectibles division. The note said:

Rich, I was reading the Wall Street Journal today and looking at the employment section. When I saw this ad, it made me think of you. I have always thought that someday you’d do something like this. So here it is. Didn’t know if you had seen it.
– Bob

P.S. This was kind of a dumb thing to do. Don’t get the wrong idea. You’re a great CEO and we wouldn’t want to lose you!

I turned the page to see a copy of a small ad that read, PRESIDENT, WORLD VISION, and went on to describe the job. I learned much later that the search firm had run the ad just once in the Wall Street, Journal, to cast a wider net and see if any “business types” might see it and apply. I will admit: reading that note sent a bit of a shiver up my spine. Bob had no idea about my conversations with my friend Bill. It was kind of eerie. But I thought I’d have a little fun with Bill, so I picked up the phone and called him.

When he heard what had happened, he was quite excited. “See, I told you so. If that isn’t a message from God, I don’t know what is. Now do you believe me?” I told him I doubted it was any message from God and that it was now in my wastebasket; it was just a crazy coincidence. God would have to speak a little more clearly than that.

It was January 1998, about seven months after Bill’s first call to me, when the next life-changing phone call came. Again, as I sat at my battleship-sized sized desk, my assistant indicated that a recruiter was on the line and asked if I wanted to speak with him.

“Sure,” I said. I always spoke with recruiters, because, well, you never know. The conversation went something like this:

“Hello, Rich. My name is Rob Stevenson, and I have been retained by World Vision’s board to help find their next president. Do you have a few minutes to talk?” The minute he said, “World Vision,” a shiver went down my spine. The series of coincidences were beginning to get a little creepy.

“How did you get my name?” I asked. “Did Bill Bryce put you up to this?”

The recruiter said he didn’t know any Bill Bryce and that he had gotten my name from a donor list.

There are a lot more details about how Stearns resisted and his reflections on scripture and introspections on who he was, but finally he agreed to fly to Seattle to do some more investigation, “a series of fact-finding meetings and discussions before I made a final decision.”

…one more amazing thing that happened-the same day as our flight to Seattle. I had gone to the office early because, months earlier, I had invited an industry colleague who lived in London to visit and tour our Lenox offices. His name was Keith, and he was a wealthy investor who owned one of the prestigious British tableware companies. With so much on my mind, and the flight later that day to Seattle, I was distracted as I showed Keith around Lenox and then brought him back to my office for coffee. That’s when he got up and closed the door, telling me he had a private matter to discuss with me.

With growing amazement I listened as Keith explained that he was planning to buy another large British tableware company and combine the two companies. The new company would be the largest of its kind in the world. And then he dropped the bombshell: he wanted me to join him as CEO. He said that he didn’t want to bother hiring a recruiting firm because he knew that I was the best candidate for the job. I started to speak, but he stopped me and said that I needed to know one more thing: he would make me rich. He said he would offer me 10 percent ownership in this new enterprise, prise, a stake easily worth $25 to $50 million, if I would agree to leave Lenox and serve as his CEO.

As you might imagine, events like this didn’t happen every day in my life. I immediately remembered something Renee had said to me about two months earlier, just as I had begun talking with World Vision. She said she believed that at the moment of decision, a great temptation would be put in my path – a financial lure – that would threaten to prevent me from going to World Vision. Now, remember, just six hours later I was going to be on a plane to Seattle to make my final decision.

I told Keith that I was stunned by his offer but that there was a complication. Even though no one at Lenox was aware of my discussions with World Vision, I decided to share my dilemma with Keith. Without naming the organization, I told him that my wife and I were committed Christians and that over the past few weeks I had been in discussions with a large charitable organization about becoming their president. I said that if I accepted the offer, it would be an opportunity for my wife and me to put our faith into action in a more direct way. And I told him that later that day I was flying out for my final interviews. Then I told him that if it didn’t work out with the charity, I would be incredibly interested in his offer, but I had to finish the process with them first.

Keith seemed a bit taken aback and said that he was amazed that I would actually consider leaving my career at Lenox to work for a charity but that he admired me for considering such a move. And then he told me a story that became a direct message from God to Rich Stearns.

He confided that decades earlier, he and his wife were unable to have children, and they finally adopted a little girl from India. They raised her as their own until very suddenly, they lost her at the age of ten. He never told me how she died. The grief tore them apart, he lost interest in his businesses, nesses, and ultimately he and his wife separated. But then he told me that one day as he was going through his mail, he found an appeal from an organization called World Vision, which invited him to sponsor a child for twenty pounds a month. (I felt that shiver go up my spine again.) With excitement he wrote them a letter explaining the loss of his daughter and asking if it would be possible to sponsor a ten-year-old girl from the same region of India where his daughter had been born. Two weeks later he received a photo of his new “daughter,” and for the next few years, he wrote to her and sent her presents regularly.

“Rich,” he said, “somehow, by sponsoring that little girl, I was finally able to let go of my grief.” Then he told me that the point of his story was that over the years he had become so impressed with this World Vision organization-that it wasn’t easy to help the poor, but that he could see that they had solid experience, a thoughtful strategy, and people with the right skills to do it effectively. “So,” he said, “I can see why a big charity like that might benefit from someone like you, Rich. But selfishly I hope you decide to come work with me.”

Perhaps you can imagine my shock about what had just happened. This could be no coincidence. God was speaking to me through this amazing temptation, saying, Do you see, Rich? Through World Vision I can touch the poorest of the poor, but also the richest of the rich. Are you willing to be open to My will for your life? Somewhat hesitantly I told Keith that it was World Vision who wanted me to be their next U.S. president. The color seemed to drain from his face as we both realized what a bizarre happenstance this was. We ended our meeting, and I promised to call him in a few weeks, after my decision had been made. And then I left for the airport.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I think you underestimate the capacity of the natural world to account for what you experienced.

@Dale

I think you underestimate the capacity of God, to act not only in individual instances , but in sets or series of otherwise unrelated events that taken one at a time may not seem compelling, but taken collectively impart unmistakable meaning, way beyond believability as mere naturally occurring random ‘coincidences’.

There were a series of a dozen or so surrounding my giving up my job and going to med. school (at the age of 43 ) and then leaving and being handed a new job in a set of events with remarkable timing and placing that demonstrate God’s sovereignty over time and space. I’ve written up a couple in more readable form than my Co-instants Log entries.

Then there’s the way I chased my wife-to-be around the country for several years, unbeknownst to and unplanned by either of us, from Philadelphia to Nebraska to Chicago, back to Philadelphia and then to Connecticut where we finally landed in the same place for an extended period of about eight months. My romantic saying: “It must have been God – I wouldn’t have thought of it. ”

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

I don’t mean to be dismissive after you’ve shared such a personal account. But honestly these kinds of stories, though they have such significance for ourselves, rarely convey that significance to others. I have my own stories and those are the ones which impact my values and to some degree my beliefs. But I don’t regard their significance as evidence in favor of following any particular tradition of belief. Instead those experiences were a spur to make make sense of what it is that gives rise to and supports God belief of every stripe.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

You need to know that God is sovereign over time and place, timing and placing, whether or not you think so now. God frequently uses events with miraculous timing that break no natural laws to accomplish his purposes, and the history of Christianity is replete with them, not to mention those in scripture, both OT and NT. He uses them to get the attention of those who will become his children, as well. Would that you were one of them.

@MarkD

…what it is that gives rise to and supports God belief of every stripe.

That is a grave error in view of the totality of all of reality. Christianity stands apart from the rest from the beginning to the end, including the reason for the existence of the earth. The fires in California hopefully give pause to some who have read the book of Revelation, and I would not be surprised if the incidence of megacryometeors increased during what remains of my years. The Shepherd from Galilee has spoken to climate change as well.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I have my own stories…

Are they accounts of sets or series of multiple independent ‘coincidences’ that individually may get our attention, but that collectively infuse a cohesive larger meaning?

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Lets leave it there. I don’t accept your authority for these assertions of yours:

@Dale

You need to know that God is sovereign over time and place, timing and placing

@Dale

Christianity stands apart from the rest from the beginning to the end, including the reason for the existence of the earth.

And most shockingly …

@Dale

The fires in California hopefully give pause to some who have read the book of Revelation, and I would not be surprised if the incidence of megacryometeors increased during what remains of my years. The Shepherd from Galilee has spoken to climate change as well.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

What ‘assertions’? That God is sovereign, or are my accounts ‘assertions’?

Ah, edited to add.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

And most shockingly …

Sometimes we need to be shocked out of our status quo. Eternity is at stake.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@Dale

Eternity is at stake.

According to you at least. Surely you realize I don’t share that view. I’m afraid your efforts at persuasion are brash, unsupported and offensive. This isn’t a conversation I’m willing to have with you.

[Ecerotops (Earl L Dunn)]

@Dale

@Ecerotops

the first bit of proof that God is is…

Maybe I do take mild exception to that. What you are referring to is actually good evidence, but it is not proof in empirical terms like some unbelievers demand.

Hello Dale,

Forgive me for being too rash the first time.

The best way to demonstrate the reality of God to anyone especially the hardened:is by a gracious, merciful approach that demonstrates the loving personality of God.

The following scripture should be helpful;

“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power (1 Corinthians 2:4)”

The power is demonstrated in the transformed life of the believer that came about by the power of the cross. The believer demonstrates the power by his testimony and the display of the character of Christ which is the unconditional love of Christ.

We remember where Jesus approached the Samaritan woman at the well not by reminding her of her sins that she was already well aware of, but by approaching her with grace and mercy and informing her of the availability of the same.

The unbeliever in question is thus dealt with not according to his sins, but according to the character envisioned in him that would be brought about by the transformation if he accepts it. Instead of Jesus thus seen as judgmental, He is seen according to His mercy and readiness to redeem.

Jesus warned the pharisees that the love of God was not in them despite all of their religion. The unbeliever as well as anyone is drawn by displayed love and care. I hope this is helpful.

Earl

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@MarkD

I don’t accept your authority for these assertions of yours:

@Dale

God is sovereign over time and place, timing and placing…

That was not an assertion without any evidence provided.

Nor is this:

@Dale

…including the reason for the existence of the earth.

I have mentioned it above.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

Why there is no proof of God:

1. All the objective evidence of science only exists as a result of the space-time mathematical structure of the universe, otherwise known as the laws of nature. Therefore you cannot expect something which is not a part of that structure to provide any objective evidence of its existence.

2. This is not to say that an all powerful God who interacts with the universe cannot make His existence more apparent than He has already. I don’t know that this could ever amount to conclusive proof that people would never find a way to discount. After all, there are people who discount even the evidence of science which is founded on written procedures anyone can follow to get the same result. But if God can interact with the universe as much as most theists believe, then it is reasonable to think God could do something which would convince most of those who don’t believe right now. So we can change the question to… why doesn’t God do such a thing.

3. If God acts in our best interest then I think we can conclude that this would not be in our best interest. This conclusion is supported by the words of Jesus in Matthew 13, indicating that it is necessary that people be able to avoid the truth if they choose. So apparently, making us believe in that He exists is not God’s highest priority. I can think of several reasons why this might be the case.
   a. A look at our history reveals great deal of evil done by fanatical believers in the name of God. I therefore doubt that it would be in our best interest to strengthen the position of such people.
   b. All through the Bible, the importance of faith is a recurrent message. We can observe there are more unseen things, like love and justice, in which it is also important to have faith.
   c. It should also be observed that it would be very easy for an all-knowing all-powerful being to dominate us completely. Thus if God seeks a relationship of real love with us, then He has to be really careful that this does not happen.
   d. I think it is a demonstrable fact that a belief in God is not of benefit to all people. For a few, the belief in God is even part of a psychopathology. I think this must be the root cause of our separation from God since Adam and Eve, for the only reason a parent child relationship can be broken is when the presence of the parent in the child’s life isn’t in the child’s best interest.

[Tihamer (Tihamer Toth-Fejel)]

I attended a lecture that Kurt Vonnegut gave, and I was surprised at how angry he was at God.
Unfortunately, at the time my faith was not as informed as it is now, otherwise I would have been able to answer his argument, which was the problem of pain.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

That’s odd. It has been a long time since I read the book but I passages from it often come to mind. I never thought Bokonism was thought of as insulting, though I suppose it paints its practitioners as a little simple minded. But I find plenty in the underlying philosophy to admire.

Can you point me to what you find indicates that KV was angry with the Christian God?

[Tihamer (Tihamer Toth-Fejel)]

The idea that God desires our love from free-will instead of fear makes sense only if you let fear run your life. I know some people who are like that; others who are not.

So I’m not sure that fear is the issue. As Moses discovered after he saw the back side of God, his face had become so radiant that people asked him to cover it with a veil. They were scared, but he was not. Moses was in awe of God’s glory.

When I first understood the fine tuning of nuclear magnetic resonance that resulted in the stellar synthesis of carbon, I was so stunned with awe that I wept (see Barrow and TIpler’s “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle”). Years later, I had vision of God’s love for me (despite my sins), and it was so awesome that I wept even more.

Was fear part of the equation? No. Definitely not. At the same time, the awe the I felt was so overwhelming that I wonder if it would have overpowered any vestige of free will that I had left. OTOH, it wasn’t like I hadn’t decided much earlier to trust in Him.

The problem is that unless you’ve seen at least a sliver of that awe, it doesn’t make much sense.