An analogy for evolution

One problem with evolutionary theory as discussed here is that some deny that biology can make the sorts of leaps that are required, asserting that things cannot be accomplished by small steps. A common illustration is automobile engines, which need all their parts to be complete in order to work.

I submit a different analogy: a sand castle. Having built and/or carved hundreds of them, I can say with confidence that it is possible to transform a military keep into a cathedral by minor incremental changes, each one of which leaves the structure functional (in the sense that it represents something that would ‘work’ in the real world). Indeed, by small increments I once transformed a “mud hut” sandcastle into a castle on a hill with a church building, a monastery structure, and a town, making no greater change at any step than a small handful of sand. At each step the structure was functional, first as a taller hut, then as a house, then an inn, then an inn with connected stables, and so on.
At no point was there any indication of a goal, for the simple reason than I didn’t have a goal, I was just adding and subtly reshaping, yet there was a steady progression from simplicity to increasing complexity.

And lest someone object that a sandcastle is all the same material and has no organs, I point out that each wing of an inn, each tower on a wall, each plaza between structures, counts as an organ. I will also point out that what started as a tower could change its function as it changed in shape, one becoming a spire on a church, another a corner of an inner wall, another just a buried undersurface portion of a plaza.

And indeed the entire thing could be broken down further; the changes I made could have been done one grain of sand at a time. There would never have been any clear distinction between such “generations”, yet when the roof of the stables had transformed into the square where the church sat it was clearly changed both in form and function.

And to respond to an oft-made objection, my castle had “fossils” – a friend took pictures at different stages. Looking at those pictures, it wouldn’t have been possible to know just how the stable roof became a small town square, but it would be possible to say, “That used to be the roof of the stables!”, and while it wouldn’t have been possible to show every step in how a tower that fell over ended up as the root of a seawall, that it did so could be shown.

I could flesh the comparison out more, but I’ll leave that up to comments!

= = = = = = = = = = = =

not the sandcastle mentioned, but one of mine–

Actually a rather slap-together version built out of boredom plus to see if I could do one on top of a boulder.

One built on a hot day between periods swimming in the surf–

Also not the one mentioned, but it did start out as a single tower that slowly grew and changed.

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this was as far as I got before I’m forced to give you some seriously important information there St Roymond…

WHO TRANSFORMED THE SANDCASTLE?

Answer: an intelligent mind.

Your analogy fails!

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Sandcastles don’t make themselves. Correct but I don’t think he wasn’t implying they could but just interested in showing how continual small changes to something could produce something more elaborate. You are correct though that in his analogy there is teleology involved. If you randomly move sand in a sand castle via blind forces, I think you just end up with a mess or something that looks like I made it :rofl:. But he is just pointing out that moving one grain of sand at a time can produce vastly different structures. If we have snapshots (fossils) of intermediate structures over time then we would probably accept a model of how it changed.

I think teleology is important. Not because of typical ID or Paley’s watch, but because in modern times it seems that all teleology has been removed from science. This tends to lead a lot of people towards scientism or materialism and produces a lot of relativism where many people don’t even believe it’s objectively wrong to play catch with babies using bayonets. It’s sad how some people have allowed science to turn our thoughts and beliefs into social constructs made by blind biological forces. I think this bottom up view of the world is far more dangerous than YECs wanting creation taught in school.

I’d argue nothing can make any small steps without God’s continual sustainment and creative work (as would you). If you ask if biology alone can account for the leaps my answer is no. Absolutely not. For the sandcastle to exist at any instant in the here and now a whole series of hierarchal causes is required and since they all have derivative or borrowed power, a first member is required. Metaphysics makes it clear that nothing exists or happens without God and thus presenting godless scenarios is folly. This is why God of the gaps is so silly. It’s bad theology. There are no gaps. The only gaps would be the uncrossable gaps in genuine miracles where God goes beyond nature.

The problem for Christians with evolution is it does not match Genesis (which starts the entire story of the Bible where humans separate themselves form God and He redeems us) and people often prevent scientific explanations as if they are alternatives to God. Christians and scientists have unknowingly embraced deist images of God since the enlightenment. That is why evolution is such a problem. In their mind it squeezes out the need for God. If we don’t need God to explain anything, what use of that hypothesis is there?

Also, many ID proponents will readily admit small changes over time can make complicated systems. However, there are still limitations and constraints on what complexity is achievable given a certain amount of time and blind, random processes. So they would have actual arguments that would need to be addressed and in some cases debunked. I personally don’t care and tend towards the consensus. Having a a sound metaphysical basing, it doesn’t matter what the methodology of science finds. Every state of affairs is metaphysically dependent on God and He is the reason the universe is ordered (able to be studied scientifically) and comprehensible.

If we can get away from the deism, maybe evolution will become more palatable to pew warmers. Unless it’s by the loud mouths telling us morality is made up, selves don’t really exist, etc….

I think that is a better place to start the discussion with YECs. So the better question is, can God use small incremental changes over 4 billion years to produce the amazing complexity we see today? It’s a subtle distinction but it phrases the issue in a way that might be more acceptable. Pretty packaging seems to be half the battle in today’s world.

Vinnie

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The analogy I often land on is the development of cities through time. In 1800, there wasn’t any electricity powering anything in New York city. At some point, electricity was introduced to a few households, but it was a luxury for the most part. If the electricity had failed for an entire week during those early introductory years the city wouldn’t stop functioning and hardly anyone would notice. However, through time more and more of the city became dependent on electricity to the point that even a loss of power of a day or more would result in complete dysfunction.

I think of evolution in much the same way. At first, a change may be simply a small benefit that a species can function with or without. However, as other changes build on previous changes those previous changes become necessary. This is sometimes called the Muller Two Step (add a part, make it necessary):

“… thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous different elementary parts or factors, and many of the characters and factors which, when new, were originally merely an asset finally became necessary because other necessary characters and factors had subsequently become changed so as to be dependent on the former. It must result, in consequence, that a dropping out of, or even a slight change in any one of these parts is very likely to disturb fatally the whole machinery; for this reason we should expect very many, if not most, mutations to result in lethal factors …”
Muller, H. J. (1918) “Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors.” Genetics 3:422-499.

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I don’t see this at all. Teleology is a central part of the forensic sciences, archaeology, modelling species behaviors in population genetics, and so forth. What you may be running against is a lack of evidence for teleology in the data found within the theory of evolution. For example, the early experiments in the 1940’s and 50’s that demonstrated the random nature of mutations could have detected teleology if it was present. For example, if the mutations conferring antibiotic resistance were in direct response to being challenged with antibiotics then it would have shown up in the data. It didn’t. Rather, those mutations arose in a manner consistent with randomness. When we compare genomes between species we see the patterns we would expect from non-teleological processes.

It isn’t a case of teleology being removed from science. Rather, teleology just doesn’t explain the data. It could be that teleology is present but scientifically undetectable, which I would suggest is the position taken by many evolutionary creationists here at BioLogos.

Would you be capable of making your ideas testable in a scientific sense? I’m not saying that something has to be scientific in order to be true, but if you are going to criticize science for not arriving at a conclusion you prefer you should at least be able to make a scientific case for your preferred conclusion.

The problem for Christian scientists with intelligent design and creationism is that they don’t explain the scientific data they are looking at. Evolution does.

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In a mechanized age, that’s an easy trap to fall into.

Which is why arguments that “evolution isn’t capable” strike me as coming from having an incompetent God.

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Go back a bit farther and there were no street lights, even.

I think London would be a great example – it didn’t even start as a city, just as a Roman supply depot, which became a town, which got a Roman fort, and so on.

A city is a good example also because it has “organs” that also develop; consider London’s sewers, which began as ditches!

I think that’s a step hard for some to get. I think of the example of feathers: they weren’t initially necessary, but proved advantageous, and now are essential to those which have them.

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And YEC doesn’t fit with the biblical text.

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I first thought to object that the sand castle isn’t a product of “natural processes.” At least not without the intelligent design of a creator. But perhaps part of the problem is that in some sense I don’t really think evolution is simply a product of natural processes either (and no not just because of some involvement of God but) because the things evolving are alive themselves. It is a basic trial and error learning process which makes things intentional in hindsight.

For example, one of the reason the characterization of evolution as random is wrong is because many of the ways in which variation is introduced in to genome are a product of evolution themselves. They are selected because they enhance the survival adaptability of the species. That is what I mean by intentional in hindsight. It is intentional in the sense that this is what our trial and error learning process is searching for – things which will enhance the survival of the species.

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The analogy I often use for this is harmonics. When you blow over the top of a bottle there are all sorts of different sound frequencies that are produced. However, there are just a few frequencies that end up being heard because their wavelengths fit into the volume of the bottle which amplifies them above the rest. I think of evolution as a similar feedback system.

Pythagoras would approve.

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Fourier would say it is transformative. :wink:

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I think it’s confusing because even as someone trained in physical sciences I have always heard evolution described in what I deem teleological terms. Describing it as a filter is much different than how the popular story goes. I think my views on teleology go even deeper than that because there is a lot of interpretation in science and how we approach issues would seem to be in a factor in how we interpret them.

I would also include physics in this as well as evolution as an area where I think it is lacking. Though I think many people may question the notion that bottom up physics wiill/can explain every other field of science and I suspect QM could help bring back an old view of the natural world.

Would you be willing to make your scientific ideas testable in a metaphysical sense? The question is inappropriate. I made a metaphysical argument. The analogy I would use is this:

Suppose learning truth about our world was analogous to traveling somewhere. Science is a SUV. It’s great for getting people places. It’s a workhorse and does a lot. But it doesn’t get me across an ocean or over a mountain or to the moon. Other vehicles are needed for that sort of travel.

Physics is very good in determining truth for those areas of life open to mathematical modeling. But that is only one form of travel. Science itself has its own metaphysical assumptions built in. Sometimes the suv needs to be repaired or replaced as well.

Given that science has a limited scope and a methodology aimed at finding a small class of truths, I would expect it to exclude a lot by default. Just because as metal detector does not find bones in the sand on a beach doesn’t mean they are not in there.

Some Christians and other non-Christian scientists of course see the issue differently. They feel evolution doesn’t fit the data as well as some others think it does. Or there might be some who see evolution is generally correct but dispute how life came from non-living matter or think God guides the process or kept it moving in the direction he wanted. There is little to no scientific reason for rejecting the latter out of hand. It just doesn’t come up in the methodology of science but that doesn’t mean its not the case or that even if evolution had overwhelming evidence it could and does explain every single aspect of life we see evidence of over the last 3 billion years. The just does not follow for those of us not standing on a Mount Hubris. In the end, the intelligibility, order and regularity of the universe (uniformitarianism) is something I personally only grant because of God and the borrowed power of hierarchal series in the here and now tell me every process depends on God at all times.

Vinnie

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I have always heard natural selection described as a filter, so I guess our experiences differ. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what each of us “heard”. What matters is the science that is actually presented which describes natural selection as a filter. Even Darwin described it as a filter:

In my experience, it is exceedingly rare to see someone who rejects evolution and also offers interpretations of actual data. Instead, we see no data whatsoever and long list of assertions, feelings, and beliefs.

How would that even work? In my experience, metaphysics is based on axioms which are dogmatically true. There can’t be any testing.

Analogies aren’t testable. Analogies are only useful as illustrations of ideas.

The question would be how you could know there were bones in the sand, and how you would know if you were wrong about bones being in the sand.

Nearly all I have seen is just the expression of feelings and no data.

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The same way I could know if there was ketchup in my fridge. But the analogy here is for truths outside science. We would use metaphysical arguments for that as one example. Science is not the only game in town.

Vinnie

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By that, I would assume you mean some sort of empirical observation which is the standard in science. Or would you use metaphysical arguments?

When someone says the process of evolution can not produce the biodiversity we see based on scientific evidence (i.e. data), that is challenging conclusions within science.

That’s why I have concluded that most of those who reject evolution are not doing so based on data and falsifiable conclusions. It is most often based on some sort of intuition that is itself based on pre-existing beliefs.

If people admitted that their rejection of evolution is not based on science then I think there would be a lot less disagreement.

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Likewise. That there is no teleology is the point of Dawkins’ title The Blind Watchmaker. Natural selection is a feedback, not feedforward, process. Neutral drift also possesses no element of teleology.

…But…grandstanders, Nova, BBC, and other popular science presentations could clean up their act when it comes to florid descriptions of evolution with verbiage that implies destiny. I can understand people being left with the impression of teleology.

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Yep. Fully agree. Scientists can be susceptible to unnecessary anthropomorphizing (and false concepts of teleology, but we could debate that).

To use a more literal example that borders on analogy (more rhetorical than anything else), could we look at the mudskipper today and predict what its descendants would look like 100 million years from now? If not, then I doubt we could have done the same for Tiktaalik roseae, Shubin’s famous tetrapod transitional find. Could we have looked at Pakicetus at the time and predicted the diversity of cetaceans we see today? I highly doubt it.

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It’s just not data you like or agree with. The Bible is data to a lot of people.

It wouldn’t work. You asked me if I would subject my metaphysical argument to scientific testing. I asked you the opposite to illustrate the question was not appropriate. Science has its own dogmatic axioms or however you want to label them (e.g. assumptions of shared physical reality) and so on.

Yes, and illustrations easy to misunderstand.

If I wanted to know if there was ketchup in the fridge I would actually look. But in your interpretation of my analogy which seems like blatant scientism, you not seeing what it actually meant. The analogy is that science finds one type of truth just as metal detectors find metal on a beach. If we want to find other types of truth (bones in the sand) we need to use other types of tools (e.g. ,metaphysics). You should critique what the analogy intends to show if you disagree with it. Unless your argument is the only truth that could ever be found is via empirical observations? I do not consider that an empirically falsifiable, scientific statement.

I could have easily done the same with your analogy (cities, power plants and electrical distribution systems are all created and designed by sentient beings) but that would miss the point. It worked roughly for what it was intending to show.

"Could* and did are two different things. The former does not necessitate the latter. Also, I think some of you have creationist PTSD. I know I never said anything like that…

No one is talking of rejecting evolution with metaphysical arguments. I would use them to reject some interpretations of where evolution leads some materialists to in terms of human value, morality, free will, purpose, etc. Some people like to confuse extensions and interpretations of science with the. actual empirical facts of science. For example, I take the apparent fine tuning of the universe (the values of the underlying physical constants of our universe are objective scientific facts) and interpret that as evidence for theism. I wouldn’t say science itself does this. but that is my natural synthesis of what is has learned just as a host of materialists use evolution to deny free will, morality, the reality of the self, etc.

Why is it so important to you that people admit this on this issue? Most people don’t care that much about evolution or the Big Bang or a lot of science to be honest. They go on their happy lives not really worrying about either until they somehow get in their way. Most Christians who reject evolution are not scientists. It is fairly obvious they reject evolution because it seems very far fetched compared to what they know and were taught their whole life (creation and Adam and Eve). Because you or someone says there are some fossils and genetic evidence proving this is just another set of claims among many others to them. And if a person is faced with what they see as two mutually exclusive truth claims: God or evolution, I expect them to side with the former. You are informed and reasonable but you aren’t God. He is going to win that for most people that have a personal relationship with them. As His sheep we hear his voice and know His name. It’s not very useful to approach believers through science. Hence my initial response to @St.Roymond

Vinnie

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In the analogy, scientists are saying they found metal in the sand using the metal detector. This would be analogous to scientists saying they found the natural process that produces biodiversity (i.e. evolution). Those who reject evolution are saying they really haven’t found any metal because they feel the metal detector is wrong because they interpret the data differently, even though they can’t cite the data they are looking at nor describe how they are interpreting it.

To be honest, it’s mostly this:

But there is a long history of creationists trying to get either creationism pushed into the science classroom in public schools or have evolution removed. The scientific creationism and intelligent design movements also try to have the label “science” attached to their claims.

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