AiG believes 750 million to 4 billion people were killed in Flood

I think that it is safe to say that the flood was local. The question of God’s justice in bringing the flood is a valid one.

Big difference from Judges (in this country) Courts of law must use rules of evidence before convictions are made. And laws clear state what is lawful and what is unlawful. No court would sentence a child to death for “wickedness”. What is “wickedness”? What is “sinfulness”? Not worshiping an invisible God?

How do you know all these things about God? How do you know He even exists?

Of course Allah and Jesus are not the same. Allah is God and Jesus was a man who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago and was executed by the Romans. What evidence have you examined that lead you to your conclusion? Could you be in error?

That is very nice thing to say about your Mom and Dad.

Let’s remind ourselves of what the Genesis account appears to be suggesting:

Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;

the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and

the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23
… the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden…

So, in just 4 verses (Gen 2:9,25 and Gen 3:22-23) we can see what God’s plan was SUPPOSED to have been:

Adam and Eve, living for Eternity (eating from the Tree of Life), naked, and being DEVOID of the knowledge of Good and Evil… for eternity.

If you think this makes sense to anyone, except maybe to a Sumerian or a Canaanite, then I guess you should happily remain an Evangelical.

George

@Patrick

Sorry, I didn’t catch that you were questioning the historicity of the flood.
I have next to no knowledge of DNA sequencing or what would constitute an astonishing population growth rate.

So again you’re questioning God’s judgement, authority, justification and qualification.
I would say an omniscient, omnipresent God would have sufficient evidence at hand to convict.
With regard to clear laws - we each have knowledge of good and evil. God warns us before he acts, parents worried for the welfare of their children could have heeded the warning and boarded the Ark (In the flood account).

http://answersfromthebook.org/2009/10/08/gods-warnings-before-the-flood/

[quote=“Patrick, post:22, topic:4142”]
How do you know all these things about God?

I know God created everything, that he gave the law and that he is perfect because he’s popped those facts about himself into the bible.

In a snapshot -
Creation. The congruence of the bible - written over thousands of years by dozens of authors. The reliability of the texts/translations. Fulfilled prophecy. Morality. The historicity of Jesus, the beauty of his teaching. The affect he had on people around him. The claims he made about himself. The miracles he performed. The resurrection. The fact that eye-witnesses could easily have discredited any false claims made by the apostles. Martyrs - if they were making up stories surely they would have recanted. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Paul writes in his letters reminding his recipients of the miracles he performed in their presence. Personal experiences. The works of CS Lewis, Paul Little, John Lennox, David Limbaugh, Geisler & Turek, Lee Strobel… coldcasechristianity.com www.alpha.org

“I’ve got a great dad, everyone calls him ‘God’” - Jesudian Silvester

No I am not questioning God’s judgement, authority, justification nor qualification as I do not believe that God exists

Really, please tell me what is your definition of good and evil? Does my definition of good and evil have to be the same as your’s?

Really, please let me know the last time God warned us before he acted.
.

Ok

We each have a conscience, is that a better way to put it?

The book of Revelation - he’s yet to act.

The book of revelation seems to have been written by some strange delusional person two thousands years old. Not something to take seriously in the 21st century.

Really? Including those from ISIS killing people in the name of God?

@Patrick

Your choice :blush:

OK, I’m going to quote a scripture here 1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith. They will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.These people are hypocrites and liars and their consciences are dead.

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Your choice also. The book of revelation is useless to living a meaningful and purposeful life in a secular scientific America.

Agree, religion is dangerous.

@Patrick

Agree, religion is dangerous.

Can you give just one example of a great contribution to humanity that was driven by atheism itself? Please avoid the temptation to list contributions by people who just happened to be atheists; there are plenty of such coincidences on both sides of the aisle.

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@Patrick

Haha, crickey.
Before responding to your other two comments, can I ask - do you not believe in good & evil, only our perception of them?

Apart from the theological and life application benefits of the bible in its entirety - the book of Revelation would also come in handy when the foretold events begin to come to pass.

I’m not sure we agree on that.

No I can’t. But a lot of contributions to goodness in the world come from the one third of people who are unaffiliated, the nones.

You say it is much more believable, but offer no evidence, and no rationale even (and you spelt throne incorrectly…) :slight_smile: Both stories could be true; they might be separate events, or they might be various portions of the same general story, but certainly it does not invalidate the story of Esther.

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@Patrick

There is no such thing as a “None” - every person lives their life as if God exists or as if God does not exist. There is no “in between”. I see nothing “heroic” in refusing to commit to how one chooses to live his or her life.

Given that atheism has no “doctrine” and has never inspired anyone to do anything noteworthy, what’s left is roughly just a label for “I don’t believe in God and want to do things my own way”. It’s all fine and dandy that people should be able to live their lives as such if they so choose to but let’s not ascribe to it any more meaning than just the “void” alternative of “every person on their own” that it actually is.

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@johnZ

Thanks for the laugh… I can’t even blame the misspelling of “thrown” on auto-fill !

AGAIN you throw out your favorite phrase you “offer no evidence, and no rationale even …”

In fact, there is certainly offer a rationale…it’s the same rationale for why Christianity co-opted December 25 as the birthday of Jesus. But to spell it out specifically, if indigenous Persians see Jews as being rivals of the Magi …then Jews gain additional credibility.

But your claim that both stories could be true, etc… You can get away with that claim once or twice…but the point of text critical analysis is to show a general pattern … which requires extensive cherry-picking in order to rationalize.

George

After thinking about this subject it occurs to me (I’m writing late at night after entertaining 6 kids on school holidays, if this is all waffle - sorry), one of the points of the flood story may be to establish the unimaginable heights of God’s eminence and authority over creation. That even things we consider perfect and innocent (babies, animals), when compared to the perfection and holiness of God, appear wicked. “All our righteousness is as filthy rags…” His standards are far above what we can even comprehend.
Whether or not God actually exercised his right to judge the world through a flood doesn’t seem to be the point of the story. I don’t have strong views on whether or not the flood story is historically accurate - and the bible doesn’t tell me I need to cement an opinion on it. I hope it’s not a historical record because I don’t like the thought of people/babies/animals drowning - but I love how perfect and wonderful God must be, if in comparison to him, things I behold as wonderful are found wanting. I don’t challenge his authority - I’m amazed by it.

No such things as Nones? You had better tell Pew research this as nearly a third of the US populations identify as such and nearly 40% of Millennials.

I am very happy to see this. It says that you have very sensible human empathy and 21st century morals and values.

@Patrick

Ad hominem Patrick? Could that be your way to concede a point when you don’t like it? You don’t know me and you’re so way off that it’s actually funny.

If by “None” you meant “unaffiliated” as in believing in God but not following any particular organizzed religion then that would not have helped your point - that is also a “kind of religion” where people make up their own definition of God and still worship it. So the only “Nones” that could match your response are those who declare themselves as agnostic even though, in practice, they live their lives as if there is no God (i.e., no difference from atheism).

You have repeatedly asked Christians to critically evaluate their faith - are you sure you do the same with yours?