AiG believes 750 million to 4 billion people were killed in Flood. If true, this was the most complete and thorough genocide in the history of humanity.
So they are making up numbers to support their theory?
The use of the FLOOD to kill the wicked is rather extravagant, wouldn’t you say?
When the Destroyer was sent into Egypt… he could pinpoint the FIRST BORN! And he didn’t have to kill anything else.
But the flood is completely indiscriminant … killing livestock … even BABY livestock …
The reason the Flood story is in the bible is to co-opt a pagan story and make it Jewish … just like the Church going into Germany and co-opting the pagan Christmas Tree and the pagan Easter Bunny (that lays eggs! - - WHA???).
DO THEY THINK THE FLOOD’s MASSIVE EXECUTION OF INNOCENT ANIMALS IS BECAUSE OF “THE FALL” ? Or because the Jewish scribes thought the story of a Massive Destruction would scare the tunic off of recalictrants?
And even unborn babies…
Ah, but you would need proof for that. Otherwise it is just your opinion. Of course, God could selectively destroy only evil hearts. But what God could do is not decisive for what God actually did. Yes, the flood was indiscriminant, just like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Were there babies in those cities? And your Egypt example seems rather strange, since surely some of those first born were likely also babies or “innocent” by worldly standards? And the death of the first born was in response to the stubbornness and disobedience of the parents…
The flood was extravagant, huge, devastating… and this would be true whether it was local or global, and essentially not different than a tsunami that killed 200,000 people, or a war that destroyed 60 million people, or a volcano that killed 200 people. Under the presumption that no one created themself, and thus no one is so pure and mighty that they can presume to have earned the right to keep on living in spite of disease, accidents, and natural disasters, then the flood exhibits the effect of man’s disobedience on himself and all around him. Those who died as Christ followers would still end up in eternity with God, just as they would when the inevitability of death eventually overcame them in old age. Meeting God a few years earlier would not be such an injustice on the timescale of eternity.
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And this will always be the difference between us, John. You say I need proof.
I say you need to take some courses in Legends and Myths … to understand how cultures take over the myths of other lands.
To me, it’s as plain as the jawbone of a donkey…
We know the church co-opted pagan festivals by superimposing a celebration of true events onto those days. We know that. It can be proved by documentation, historical records.
Where is your proof that the Genesis Flood story is in the bible to co-opt a pagan story? It certainly does not say so in scripture. So where is this said, other than in the speculations of modern writers? What ancient documents at the time of the Genesis story are you citing or referring to. And proof is not in inference, since it could be inferred in reverse that these pagan stories are simply derivatives of the same event, told in a different fashion. You need evidence from Moses, or from Joshua, or from the prophets, or from such ancient writers who are recording the history of the time, who specifically state what you are claiming, ie. that Moses looked at all the stories of large floods and decided to create his own story to supplant theirs. Of course, it would lead to a lot of other conclusions as well… that God did not really give Moses the ten commandments, and that the red sea did not really divide, and that the ten plagues did not really happen, etc… etc…
You realize of course that sometimes you must not take me hyper-literally… yet you might deduce this: God existed in three persons at all times, and so Christ was always present. So I use the term Christ followers to imply that they would have been children of the true God, who redeemed them in Christ, even though the Messiah had not yet come. But these followers are hypothetical, in the sense that we don’t know if there were any at all in those situations.
But one example, suppose there was a believing child in an Egyptian home, but the father would not allow the doorposts to be painted in blood, and so the first born was destroyed… and perhaps the believing child was the first born. All speculation of course, but I would maintain that even so, God’s will was carried out in a way that was not detrimental to the eternal destiny of those who love him.
How does one die as a Christ follower, 2000+ years before Christ?
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Christy, see above reply to Eddie.
The bible never guarantees any of us (humans, animals, babies) a long or comfortable life.
God, being perfect, is totally justified in wiping out the entire imperfect earth if he so desires. It seems a bit funny to me that we puny humans feel qualified to accuse and bring charges against God. Where does the idea that we are somehow ‘entitled’ to life come from? We’re sinners entitled to death, God in his grace lets us keep breathing & patiently puts up with our tantrums, disbelief and arrogance. Not only that, but he’s taken the death we deserve and invited us into his family. Whatever your beliefs are about the truth and/or extent of the flood - a charge against God for destroying his own corrupted property doesn’t stand up.
Good to hear from you. I hope that your 2016 is going well.
So you believe God is justified in wiping out the entire earth if He so desires? Where does your God get this right from? Does Allah have that similar right? How about other gods of other religions? Let me guess, probably not as your God, or more correctly the God of your parents who gave you this belief as a young child, is the one true God and all the other Gods are false. So Allah may be the same God as your God but Allah and one billion people got it all wrong. Allah doesn’t want believers to kill non-believers (Christians) right? Allah has no right to do this? or does he?
You are in control of your own beliefs. You can believe that you have a Master somewhere controlling you. Or you can live life free to believe what you want and live your life with a purpose and meaning that you chose.
Of course not. I would never make a charge against God for a being the villain in a mythical story. It would be like charging the actors with murder in a movie about 911.
What a strange question. You’ve asked it before. This may sound crude to say, but when someone asks a politician if he has ALWAYS told the truth, do we really believe him when he says “Absolutely!”.
The Book of Esther says that there was a cabal of individuals who wanted to kill all the Jews. But the cabal was outsmarted, and THEY were hunted down throughout Persia and killed.
In Herodotus, we read about the Magophonia (usually translated as The Slaughter of the Magi). In it, we find a much more believable version of the story. The Magi had gained the thrown of Persia and were “oppressing” the native Persians. A Persian hero takes back the throne, and the Magi are hunted down throughout Persia and killed or jailed. This event is so dramatic, that annually the Persians celebrate … to remind the surviving Magi to mind their place!!!
It takes a clever writer to take a historic slaughter … and make it all about the Jews…which is not mentioned by the ORIGINAL reporter - - Herodotus. Esther is written generations later.
Thankyou, I hope yours is too!
Great question. I would say he gets this right in the same way our earthly judiciaries have the right to detain, imprison and sometimes kill people. Judges in courts have the qualification and authority to pass judgement on those who have broken the law, because they themselves have studied the law, understand it and uphold it.
God has the right to judge and sentence creation because a) He made it,
b) He is the law-giver, he certainly understands the law, c) He is perfect, he upholds the law.
In the same way that a judge in a courtroom is not evil when he sentences a person, God is not a criminal when he judges the world.
No Allah and Jesus cannot be the same. Both claim to be the one true religion, examining the evidence leads me to believe that Christianity and the truth claims in the bible are reality.
I have never seen any evidence to indicate that Allah exists. The bible, which I trust, says he doesn’t.
You can’t endow a non-entity with ‘rights’.
Yes, as are we all.
I don’t believe that.
Yes, or you can live with a purpose and meaning designed by Person who created you, and knows you better than anyone, and loves you completely.
That’s what this thread is about isn’t it?
When I saw AIG the first thing I thought of was the insurance company and couldn’t figure out what they were doing making calculations about the biblical flood. Here is a link to an excellent book that deals with the questions raised by the Jews moving into the promised land. http://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Really-Command-Genocide/dp/0801016223 Some of those same arguments apply to these questions about the deaths in the flood. As for the questions about the salvation of the innocents caught up in the flood, I would recommend reading Clark Pinnock. As for AiG, how can you trust an organization that gives themselves a 3.25 Billion margin for error? As for the flood itself, read this article, 'cause it’s really good. http://ncse.com/rncse/29/5/yes-noahs-flood-may-have-happened-not-over-whole-earth
I posted this from AIG to show the absurdity of believing that the Flood of the OT was an historical event 4350 years ago. If 750 million to 4 billion people were killed in a global flood don’t you think that would leave a large amount of evidence in our DNA? Thousand of people have been sequenced and everyone DNA shows mutations that can be traced back millions of years in a step by step progression that shows migration patterns, and many other traits that make the claim of a mass genocide impossible.
This AIG number killed has another problem. If there were 750 million to 4 billion people killed in a global event 4350 years ago, it would mean that it took only 1750 years (70 generations) to go from 2 people (A&E) to a world population of 750 million to 4 billion. That rate of population growth is astonishing.
I think that it is safe to say that the Flood story in the bible is a myth and don’t even ask the question of whether God was justified or not.