A theological-biological explanation of “the original sin’s transmission”

Evil, sin, or whatever term is used, is an act by a person due to intent and conscious choice. We can say the person who committed the act is evil (or he has such a character) because he wanted to hurt, or pervert (or whatever description we give it). This to me means a person (especially humans) must possess the knowledge and understanding of what is good and what is evil before he can decide to commit a good act, or an evil one.

From this, I can understand God creating beings who may choose to do good or evil acts to each other, but not necessarily that He created evil beings as such (nor a thing called evil).

It should be said however, that the problems of good and evil has bedeviled us for all recorded history. It is one of the hardest questions I can think of - but it is still what we decide to do. I do not think God forces anyone to do evil.

1 Like

The same thing can be said about good and love but I don’t see your argue over not being a God by the same logic.

That’s the mainstream orthodox position. I don’t see you proposing something different. I have to ignore it unfortunately because im uninterested to it,sorry

That we agree on.

For one to do that there’s must be good and evil.
For Satan to do that there should have been evil together with good.

Your options are a(God created it
b Evil "preexisted)

If God didn’t create evil then it must have come from somewhere. From where thought?
Also your idea of what sin is and such is somewhat contradicting. Have you read how the OT writers describe sin and evil? They describe it pretty much like an entity itself

Thanks Adam for commenting.

The “very obvious biblical theology” you refer to is actually the very core of my model!

The history of humanity as “a community in need of redemption” begins at the arrival of the first sin. Therefore, only at this moment death, illness, aging, and concupiscence become significant in the perspective of the eternal happiness God orders humans to.

Before this moment, the evolutionary mechanisms, and in particular death, are “of no real significance”, as moral responsible beings are not involved in and therefore they have no actual relevance for eternal life: Without the perspective of the eternal happiness all things are transient, and death is merely a natural process of decay.

The decay of creation is wanted by God as a state that is convenient to motivate humans to repent in case they sin. Thus, strictly speaking, death becomes “the wage of sin” only and immediately after the arrival of the first human sin. Although before sin’s arrival death can be considered “the wage of sin, in case sin comes”.

The fact that DNA transmits illness, aging, and death in the animal world before the first human sin is a somewhat “retroactive” effect of this first sin: God creates the world since the Big Bang as if the first sin had already happened. However, God creates the first human beings in the image of God during the Neolithic in a state of original holiness as if the first sin had not yet happened: The genetic transmission bears the state of original sin only after the first sinner perpetrates the first human sin so that subsequently the transmission happens in absence of God’s original grace.

The reason why “original sin” becomes transmitted is a theological one, but the transmission is linked to biological mechanisms.

I make note of one particular statement above and have a question…

The decay of creation is wanted by God as a state that is convenient to motivate humans to repent in case they sin. Thus, strictly speaking, death becomes “the wage of sin” only and immediately after the arrival of the first human sin. Although before sin’s arrival death can be considered “the wage of sin, in case sin comes”.

  1. So you are saying God designed into humanity mechanisms that would “switch on” in the event one sinned? Isnt this intelligent design? (it certainly is the claim that lies at the very heart of that movements theology)
  • I have grave concerns for the claim that God blackmailed humanity via such mechanisms…Especially given Satan said to Eve “you will become like God knowing good and evil”. Clearly prior to the point of this statement made by the serpent, and the fall of Adam and Eve, they had no knowledge of what good and evil actually “looked like”.

  • As i wrote earlier, the bible very strongly proposes that death is the separation from our creator. We die because we are no longer “attached” to our giver of life, God. The redemption process defines this very clearly…we are redeemed back to Him (both physically and spiritually).

I will close our discussion with this (as I have said), knowledge of good and evil is required, not a pre-existing thing. And evil (or sin) is deprivation of good, or contradicting the good that God reveals (or teaches) us (it is the absence of good, although I prefer contradicting what one knows is good.

The thing is you close the discussion without any evidence for your opinion.

Says who? You? By what premise? Where’s your backup?

Says who again? The Eastern Orthodox church? The Catholics? Who ? You?

Where’s the backup? Because sin is only described as missing a target in the bible.

Exactly. You answered my argument with a bias not an counterargument :upside_down_face:

I fully agree to this!

But I would like to add:

God let us sinners on earth to give us opportunity to convert, repent, and then redeem us back to him.

To facilitate our conversion God considers it convenient to let us in an environment where we experience our weakness and realize that we are not God: This environment is the world we live in, ruled since the beginning by evolutionary mechanisms that entail illness, aging, death, and inclination to selfishness.

The first human beings God made in the image of God were endowed with original grace capable of overpowering illness, aging, death, and concupiscence.

Since God planed the earth as a convenient place for people in need of redemption to dwell, after the first human sin all humans come into existence without the original grace, and therefore submitted to illness, aging, death, and concupiscence, that is, in the state of “original sin”. God bounds everyone over to this state so that he may have mercy on us all (Romans 11:32).

how do you come to the conclusion that corruption of a “very good” creation which was sinless is now convenient to God for extending grace and salvation? Have you also considered that salvation required God to die for his own law at the hands of His own creation…is that convenient to you?

I also have grave concerns about the earlier claim that God is not all powerful, omnipotent, and all-knowing…the bible very specifically states the complete opposite of that claim. As a Christian, it is not a claim i can find find biblical references to support.

Adam, I am not aware to have ever claimed such a thing.
Could you please quote the place where you have found it?

Me too!

I do not find evidence in the bible that supports this theory…you have extrapolated decay existing before sin…ie that death was already in the world before sin. The bible has no texts that I am aware of that support such a view. Sin and death very specifically “ENTERED” this world…it was not created with those mechanisms already here!

Death is the separation from our lifegiver, our creator, God. If we are disconnected from our creator, we eventually die…this is the entire point of the tree of life…this is exactly what that tree represents. Adam and Eve exercised the fruits of their own faith by physically eating of the tree of life. This was not a faith of salvation btw…prior to the fall Adam and Eve did not need saving from the wages of sin. It was a faith that everything God had given them was sufficient.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

I wasn’t quoting you on this…its a doctrine i have noticed a number of TEists use in order to get around theological problems.

This an interesting statement. I think i would amend it however because the consequences of sin entering this world go far beyond the biological…it corrupts everything, both physical and spiritual. Biology is but one part of the world that has become corrupted.

The Apostle Paul says that ALL creation was affected.

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

You got part of that right: “I am not aware.” Period. We have already talked about God planning two creations from the beginning, and the first one was destined to futility. You have been shown texts that demonstrate that. Death and decay therefore did exist before sin, no extrapolation required, before there were humans to sin, and don’t confuse physical death with spiritual death, which is what you appear to be doing.

YECism still makes Jesus Plan B. That should be repugnant to any Christian who loves God.

The available data tell us that animals died before there were moral human beings to sin.

Nonetheless this death was not eternity-relevant as the animals are not ordered by God to share eternal life. In this sense “death before sin” is not properly death, but merely a decay process like many others, part of the universal increasing of entropy (“second law of thermodynamics”).

You could even say that before the appearance of human beings in the image of God the world didn’t actually exist, as it was not (yet) ordered to endure forever.

Thus death (as an eternity-relevant event) entered the world in the very moment the sin entered the world, very much as the Bible states: “sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men” (Romans 5:12).

Now the decay of creation and death are fore-planned by God as part of his redemption plan, and are naturally transmitted, in particular biologically encoded in the DNA. And in this sense, the first sin can be considered the cause of the state of decay and death that affects the creation since the beginning.

This has the following important consequences:

  • The “original sin’s transmission” means the transmission of death, suffering, and concupiscence, and results from the biological transmission of the decay of creation and Darwinian inclination to selfishness in absence of the original grace.

  • The first sinner, whoever he is and whenever the first sin occurred, can be considered the first parent of all human beings sharing the state of original sin, even if their DNA does not derive by replication of the first sinner’s DNA.

This is what I state as well!

I claim the very same! Prior to the fall Adam (the first sinner) was endowed with original grace to nullify the state of decay and the Darwinian inclination to selfishness.