A question for Ken Ham last week and a question about debates

This current discussion, initially focusing on Ken Ham, has been instructive, not so much for the “information” that is presented, but for the nature of the discussion and insight into how various individuals think and present arguments.

Valuing Truth

Can we agree that there is an increasing shortage of truth in our nation? Our leaders do not speak the truth; the academy (research universities) often do not speak the truth. So how can we sort ideas out to know what is true and what is not?

Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life?”(John 14:6)—Truth is a person. Again, Jesus tells us, “Your Word is Truth”(John 17:17)—God’s Word, the Bible, is truth. I submit that in a crisis—the lack of truth telling—it is necessary to seek truth from scripture.

Is God’s Word a source of knowledge in todays world.

Does academic theory trump God’s Word? What is the basis of knowledge—Jesus Christ or the academy?—a question asked and answered by Dallas Willard—Jesus is the source of all truth.

The example of a previous discussion on Critical Race Theory

I recall an earlier discussion on Critical Race Theory in the BioLogos Forum. I interjected some thoughts from a pastor-Bible teacher into the discussion. Then a maze of academic theory was erected though which I certainly could not navigate—only critical race theory proponents in the discussion could navigate it. In this way, the biblical insights of this pastor-teacher were negated. The academy trumps God’s Word, or so it seemed for at least some in that discussion. (I realize that there is a broad diversity of views in the BioLogos forum, even among those who support evolutionary theory.)

Note too that critical theory is derived from Marxism which in its most prevalent manifestations is anti god and anti Christianity and vastly destructive to human flourishing. Here is Britannica’s definition: “critical theory (is a) Marxist-inspired movement in social and political philosophy originally associated with the work of the Frankfurt School.”

In the context of this discussion of Ken Ham’s views, it may be instructive to note his views on Critical Race Theory (CRT). Ken Ham observes that we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, so there is only one race, the human race. The biblical distinction is not “race,” but people groups. Genetics backs this up. There is very little genetic difference between so-called races. The genetic differences within “races” is actually greater that that between “races.” This is an example of how Ken Ham, and we also, can use God’s Word to navigate through the otherwise confusing morass of competing ideas, in this example, racism. As believers—Christians—we must embrace Jesus as the primary source of knowledge in today’s world.

Thoughts on the current discussion—and disputes about the meaning of words

How do I see this same confusion and obfuscation in this current discussion? I noted three areas where design in nature is apparent—the fine tuning of the universe, the incredible complexity of the cell, and the information basis of life. I also noted that early on, the genome was considered by many evolutionists to be largely “junk DNA,” jetsam and flotsam left over from millions of years of evolutionary trial and error. I further noted that currently, most of the DNA has been found to be functional. Yet several responses denied that functionality.

I learned that there is a dispute in the evolutionary community of what the meaning of “functional” is in respect to DNA. Really? How can the meaning be so debatable? If we remove sections of the DNA, what happens? It almost always becomes non-functional or at least less functional.

Some of the genome may code for nothing, yet is needed to allow the gene to fold properly. So rather than debating the meaning of the word “functional,” we can substitute the word “necessary.” Then perhaps we can agree.

There are also massive discussions about what biological information is. How about “the instructions for life?” Could it really be that simple? From the view looking down from “30,000 feet,” it certainly seems so.

Observations about how sources of information are viewed

I quoted from Casey Luskin who was quoting from various sources including evolutionists. One response in this discussion was that Luskin is a lawyer and a geologist, so why should we take anything he says seriously? Well, because he is an aggregator of evidence, rather like the sometimes well respected science communicator Bill Nye. It is not what Nye has learned personally from the laboratory that he communicates, but his overall aggregation of knowledge on the subjects on which he speaks. But when Luskin does the same thing—aggregates knowledge from various sources including evolutionary scientists—his statements are met with hand waving dismissal. (It seems that Luskin’s training as a lawyer should be recognized as good preparation for being an aggregator and interpreter of evidence gleaned from others.)

Aggregation is a valid and necessary function that benefits all of us, and seems to be the best way for those not otherwise qualified—the lesser non academic mortals—to participate in discussion and gain the insight necessary to do so. We all depend on aggregators of knowledge in areas for which we lack expertise, which is almost everything.

Speaking of “confirmation shopping,” another response to my post. (Of course, that is a weakness that does not affect the person who made the comment.) In 2006, Francis Collins, founder of BioLogos, in his book, The Language of God, promoted the idea of junk DNA, calling it “jetsam and flotsam.” But by 2015 he abandoned that idea, saying that there is no jetsam and flotsam in DNA.

Is my reference to this authority’s statement to support my view diminished by the fact that I am the one quoting him? In referring to Collins, am I “confirmation shopping?” If so, then any authority I reference can be dismissed, even if otherwise accepted. And, curiously I ask, before he made that statement, did Collins not also read the rest of the ENCOCE papers? I suspect he did, and made the statement anyway.

An important thought on the interpretation of evidence

And then there was the comment about research that demonstrates the necessary conclusion that common descent is true—“most of genetics makes no sense if common descent isn’t true.” Well, the evidence is the same for all of us. But that conclusion is an interpretation of the evidence. It is important to understand that all evidence should be subjected to various interpretive methods or views in considering which interpretation is best supported. Undoubtedly, this referenced evidence can be interpreted by evolutionary theory and deemed to be supportive of it. But I have little doubt that the same evidence, viewed from a (non-evolutionary) creationist position will also fit well and even better with the explanation of common design rather than common descent.

This multiple hypothesis consideration is the process to which all data must be submitted for a conclusion to be valid—not simply “can I fit it in” to my particular viewpoint, but what is the best explanation for the data in evidence.

God’s creation as evidence for the nature of the creator

I see God’s creation as incredible evidence for his eternal power and divine nature. As skepticism increases, so does God’s revelation of evidence about his creative power through what he has made. I believe that God has given us for this time the knowledge of the fine tuning of the universe, the incredible complexity of the cell, and the information basis of life to confirm who he is by what he has created. Romans 1:20 NIV, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” Without excuse. But when so called science excludes evidence for design, this evidence God has given us through creation about who he is and what he is like is obscured.

Observations about weaknesses in argumentation and a positive conclusion

When I observe weaknesses of argumentation in the BioLogos forum, it is difficult for me to attach much validity to many of the conclusions that are reached. So yes, to a great extent, those with different views are talking past each other, and there is minimal value in the discussions. Nobody’s minds are being changed.

I am often called out in the BioLogos forum for what is perceived as poor argumentation or bad data. And when I find this to be valid criticism, I take that as instructive and helpful. I would encourage others in this forum to do the same.

Just because we may agree with a person’s conclusion shouldn’t mean that we should give a pass for a flawed argument. I think more constructive criticism of arguments for all participants from all participants would be helpful to all of us. The resulting valid arguments increase the value of our discussions for all of us.

Appreciation

And by the way, there were several thoughtful responses to my posts, and I appreciate them.

I believe God designed the weather (lower case ‘id’) and is sovereign over it. Please tell me how we discover God in meteorology and infer his design scientifically.

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The current view of Evolution is the greatest threat to Religion ever. Not because of any perceived conflict with the details of Genesis but because it is trying to claim that life was made and developed without God. It is trying to rob God of HIs main raison d’etre. Regardless of how, the Bible claims God as the creator and therefore has ultimate dominion over life and death. If this is proven false then, as Paul puts it “we are to be the most pitied”
God’s power is proved by His works If God did not create the Heavens and the Earth then He is already a liar and untrustworthy. Furthermore, if He has no power over life then we cannot trust His power over death so all hope of an afterlife becomes lost. Our only course of action is to somehow prove His involvement in Evolution, or at least that Evolution cannot achieve its goals without Him.
Bio-genesis is still unexplained, so for Now, God still has a part, but as the Evolutionary claims expand, God’s place diminishes. For Christianity (et al) to survive God must be seen as more than a bystander or the instigator. Humanity is viewed as the pinnacle of God’s creation, but Evolution would have it that it is both fluke and repeatable, so that other species could attain similar levels of cognisance and dominance. The Planet of the Apes becomes prophecy not fantasy.
The problem for Christians therefore is to understand science well enough to be able to argue, even prove the involvement of God in Evolution.
In Law a person is declared innocent until proven guilty. For Evolution it is declared accurate until or unless proved otherwise. The onus is on the Christian (et al) to prove God in a field where God is dismissed as fallacious.

Richard

Good question.

The weather would be a subset of the world being fine tuned for life and observation, which is a further subset of the fine tuning of the universe. Meteorology would be part of a cumulative case argument for design. That design in meteorology can be seen in the hydrological cycle, the pathways of the sea, and the seasons, all mentioned in the book of Job. There are other factors–the tilt of the earth for seasons comes to mind.

As our understanding of the complexity of cosmology and biology expands, the more we understand how little we know. So the unexplored space is increasing faster than our knowledge is.

Design is not a God of the gaps argument, but rather an argument from evidence. As evidence accumulates, more of it points to design. And as the evidence for design and intelligence increases, the evidence for a designer and creator also expands.

Evolutionary “claims”–was that a slip?–are often just that, “evolution of the gaps” arguments.

And to the claim that the Bible cannot inform science–well, the hydrological cycle and the pathways of the sea identified in Job have informed scientific research.

American naval officer and oceanographer Matthew Maury (1806-1873) was a Christian who loved reading his Bible. He also had no doubts about its accuracy. And these facts led him to some remarkable discoveries in science In his Bible studies, the words of Psalm 8 stuck in his mind: ‘ … whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas’. Maury determined that if God’s Word said there were ‘paths’ in the seas, then there must be paths. So he set out to find them.

Any claim about rubbish DNA and/or redundant DNA assumes that we fully understand DNA. I would politely suggest that this is a little premature.
In terms of complex design, redundant and superfluous elements are either left or planned to account for the unusual or disastrous possibilities involved in use. Some elements only come into use in extreme conditions. Perhaps there are nuances in DNA structure that are yet to be discovered or understood?

Richard

But you cannot ID (as in identify) the Designer. Nor can you in biology, nor can you point to anything or any point and scientifically say “God did this, right here.” The ‘big bang’ of big bang cosmology is as close as we come.

You may recall, I used to be an ID proponent (and I still am – lower case ‘id’) until I realized that the basis of ID and anti-evolution arguments(?) (like yours and @RichardG’s) are merely arguments from incredulity. @RichardG likes to think there is a philosophical agenda in ‘evolutionary science’, but methodological naturalism does not have any, nor can it.

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Not from the scientific point of view, no. But for the Christian, philosophy is never out of the mind.

Richard

I agree pretty much, except for the fact that the science performed and the conclusions reached are the same for the nonbelieving scientist as for the Christian ones.

I would hope not.

Part of the “job” of the Christian is to view data from a Godly perspective that the atheist scientist cannot or will not do and perhaps see avenues of research or thought that can change the overall theory.

Richard

Once again, you are mixing philosophical naturalism with methodological.

Nice words, but I have still yet to see any true evidence for design. We only get statistical assertions, usually which on close examination are based on flawed presumptions or erroneous methodology. Can you just reference what evidence you are referring to?

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So tell me what would convince you of design? I am assuming that you do not accept the irreducible systems claims?

Richard

Whatcha got? It seems that just about all the irreducible systems proposed have been reduced. And it is a poor argument anyway, as they may have developed from something that is no longer around to see. Just another version of “We don’t know, so it must have been a designer that custom made it._

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God’s finger manipulating molecules?

So if a nonbelieving scientist concludes that 2+2=4, then it is the job of believing scientists to shop for a different conclusion? Is that how truth works in your imaginary world, Richard?

The job of every scientist is to make sure that they are reporting the data accurately and interpreting it honestly. As I keep saying, interpretation of scientific evidence is constrained by strict rules—rules that are exactly the same for Christians and atheists alike, whether you acknowledge the possibility of miracles or not.

This being the case, they may have different philosophical perspectives on their conclusions, but the mechanical details of those conclusions should be exactly the same.

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that is complete nonesense…i just stated that the Jews had followed this doctrine for their entire history…thats thousands of years prior to the 18th century and proves that statement absolute rubbish. Are you going to attempt to make the claim the is was not jewish cutlure to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath and follow the Sanctuary model…a model they still follow today btw?

i thought Michael Behee’s claim was irreducible complexity…is that not different from irreducible systems? I dont see the two as being the same.

am i missing something here… is the secular worldview timeline not also based on statistical calculations for how long it might take for cosmological and evolutionary theories about our existence to result in what we observe today? Are we honestly going to make the claim that we have exact measurements for billions of years when we do not actually have such data from billions of years ago from which we can be assured of the appropriate conditions whereby consistent experimental results can be observed? Isnt it rather a stretch to attempt to make hypothetical claims given secularists also claim killer asteroids or volcanoes have also impacted this earth’s environment? Would not these kinds of world killer catastrophic events (which we have not observed directly btw) significantly change the experiments and therefore the results?