A plethora of thoughts on Intelligent Design

Jay

It seems to me that the “impossibles” are more often attributed to ID arguments by their opponents, than claimed by themselves.

Off the top of my head, for example, Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is just that - a question of probabilities that become far less plausible than design, even if one generously reduces them by orders of magnitude (which, incidentally, Dembski usually does compared to non-ID probabilities he cites from the literature). Now, of course, that does not mean the starting assumptions are right, but that’s a question for discussion. But he’s completely in agreement with the argument that no set of information is impossible (and that any string is as likely as any other) - but that the set of functional information is so much smaller that “cheating” is hugely more likely.

Likewise, Meyer’s most discussed work overtly stresses “inference to the best explanation” methodology, usually by describing the problems with the alternatives already discussed in the existing literature. I can’t recall him using the language of “impossibility” at all.

The one exception amongst the big boys of ID, in my limited experience, is Behe. That seems to be because the form of his argument for “irreducible complexity”, however well or otherwise his examples match it, is one of deductive logic, where there appears to be a logical contradiction in positing a stepwise evolutionary pathway.

Incidentally, most replies to him have proposed hypothetical possible partial solutions that weaken the logical force by suggesting possible loopholes. That certainly makes “impossible” less tenable in a deductive argument, but of course does not provide an actual chain of efficient causation, nor address the probability question.

Regarding IC, Sy Garte gives a good example that struck him forcibly back in his college days: the transcription of DNA requires tRNAs, of twenty different flavours, each matching one coding triplet to an amino acid. That’s twenty separate evolutionary stories required, to make twenty related, but highly specialised, RNA molecules for the twenty amino acids constituting life.

But those tRNAs have to be synthesised by RNA polymerase III, an enzyme complex (which is itself part of a more complex transcription apparatus) - which is, of course, a protein made up of the very amino acids that require tRNA to transcribe them…

It’s actually more complicated than that, of course. Now Sy is not an ID proponent, nor does he say its evolution is impossible, but there is a chicken-egg problem there which rather invites such a description.

So much for “impossible”. But I agree with you that the design argument is cumulative (though remember that, for me, it is axiomatic: unlike ID I’m less interested is demonstrating design to unbelievers than seeing how Christian creation doctrine applies in the world of science).

I’d say, though, that opposition to ID’s cumulative argument (IC [Behe], UPB [Dembski], weakness of non-design mechanisms [Meyer], fine tuning at both cosmic and smaller scales [Denton], metaphysical arguments for First Cause [Torley], form [Sternberg], biosemiosis [Johnson], near-universality of “design instinct” [Axe]…) comes through attacking each aspect by every means available from careful refutation to ad hominems and misrepresentation, without addressing the cumulative case much.

That may be inevitable - it seems ID proponents often similarly attack individual aspects of evolutionary naturalism rather than the cumulative case… though I have seen frequent discussions of the weakness of its underlying Epicurean assumptions, far more than I’ve seen critiques of the actual metaphysical assumptions underlying ID (I must add that “Epicurean”, however, as a term, seems to be N T Wright’s preferred pejorative rather than that of any actual ID people I have read).

Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense. It also is fairly close to what I was trying to say, which is that science may be adequate to explain physical causes, and it may succeed (though I doubt it) in producing a unified, purely naturalistic account of origins, but even that still doesn’t answer humanity’s most important questions.

I think it is extremely unlikely that science will abandon methodological naturalism, almost as unlikely as hoping that scientists will one day “wake up” and question the assumption that science is adequate to explain origins. This is especially the case when so much advance has been made in just the last decade. Perhaps in another 100 years, if the problems are still intractable, things will change, but for now, it’s hard to see it happening.

I still think the most productive approach is to educate the public on the limits of science. Make them understand the “narrowness of method” that prevents science from arriving at the truth.

This, to me, assumes that science and scientists can provide answers about truth in regard to origins. I think our challenge, as Christians, is not to change the scientific method so that scientists can finally discover the truth; our challenge is to point out that science cannot provide those answers, so we must look elsewhere for the purpose and meaning of our existence.

You’ll probably have to explain this to me. Is the work of structuralists accepted by the scientific establishment? If so, doesn’t this mean that science does not completely reject the kind of approach you are advocating?

Has an ID theorist made the cumulative argument?

Dunno. It wouldn’t surprise me, as there have been a few books doing an “ID overview”, but I’ve not read them.

Paley did, of course, in an earlier age - which is only relevant if one accepts the critics’ arguments that ID is just rehashed natural theology.

Jon, you are mistaken in two ways. First, you are talking about translation of RNA, not transcription of DNA.

Second, and more importantly, there are not “twenty different flavours” of tRNAs. There are 64 codons, some pairs work with a single tRNA because of third-base wobble. There are multiple tRNAs for some amino acids. On top of that, there are >100 amino acid residues in proteins because of multiple posttranslational modification systems.

By your criteria intelligent design should have one start codon, one stop codon, and codons for 62 amino acids without wobble.

I think you have inadvertently offered a scientific ID hypothesis that distinguishes a flavor of ID from evolutionary theory–with an empirical prediction that turns out to be false.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:153, topic:5673”]
…there is a chicken-egg problem there which rather invites such a description.
[/quote]
Well, any thorough description of the chicken-egg problem would need to explain why the enzymatic center of the ribosome, peptidyl transferase, is a ribozyme. That makes perfect sense in the RNA World without ID (evolution can only modify something so important and non-redundant around the edges) but makes zero sense in terms of ID, since RNA is an inferior catalyst.

Meyer simply makes the false claim that peptidyl transferase is a protein. So despite an entire chapter devoted to the RNA World hypothesis, he just happens to characterize the single strongest evidence for the hypothesis in a completely false way. Ignorance cannot be an excuse, as Meyer even cited Wally Gilbert’s single-page News&Views paper in which this prediction was clearly stated (Nature 319:618, 1986)!

“But a few RNA enzymic activities still exist, the two described recently, and possibly others in the role of ribosomal RNA or in the splicing of eukaryotic messenger RNA.”

Meyer has neither acknowledged nor corrected the false claim.

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Ben

I think we are all grateful for your willingness to point out our terminological errors, and even to keep a record of whether published authors have acknowledged your corrections. I should, indeed, have referred to “translation”.

Likewise, my simplification of matching the number of tRNAs to the number of amino acids, for the purposes of a seven line example. 3rd base wobble means there are at least 31 flavours of tRNA necessary for the 64 possible codons. Perhaps that’s relevant somehow.

You’ll have to spell out, though, for my benefit, how that affects the circularity issue I raised: those 31 tRNAs still have to be produced by a protein enzyme made of the amino acids for which they code.

I’m not sure of the relevance of raising the question of peptidyl transferase again, though (apart from linking it to Meyer’s erroneous designation). You seem to be arguing that the presence of a ribozyme in the ribosome makes RNA world a possibility. Though that’s a long way from establishing it as a reality, if we grant RNA world’s existence, how would that explain the many flavours of tRNA? Are you saying that ribozymal activity was capable of synthesising tRNAs in the absence of proteins, and that the RNA polymerases were merely a later refinement? Or that proteins could originally be translated by ribozymes without tRNAs, so that the whole current system arose as a refinement? Or what.

My point is that your example serves as an ID hypothesis. It’s what you expect an intelligently-designed system to be. But it’s not like that.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:158, topic:5673”]
You’ll have to spell out, though, for my benefit, how that affects the circularity issue I raised: those 31 tRNAs still have to be produced by a protein enzyme made of the amino acids for which they code.
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Do they? Or more accurately, did they before DNA and protein?

[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:158, topic:5673”]
I’m not sure of the relevance of raising the question of peptidyl transferase again, though (apart from linking it to Meyer’s erroneous designation).[/quote]
It’s an initial step in addressing the chicken-egg problem, of course. I would describe it as false, not erroneous. If it was erroneous, it would have been acknowledged and corrected years ago.

[quote]You seem to be arguing that the presence of a ribozyme in the ribosome makes RNA world a possibility.
[/quote]No, I am stating that it is consistent with the hypothesis that the protein synthetic machinery started as entirely RNA.

More importantly, it was an empirical prediction made before the discovery was made, which is the way real science works, not by “arguing” about the data we already have while pretending that there are no predictions to be made.

Here’s the thing, though: can you come up with an ID hypothesis that explains this objective fact better than the RNA World hypothesis does, and that makes empirical predictions about information you don’t have? Or lacking that, what is the “inference to the best explanation”?

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This is the part I never see them do, which indicates that what they’re doing isn’t science. Quite apart from what Behe said. And quite apart from the fact that anyone who can’t say how old the earth is, isn’t doing science.

What is it about the RNA world hypothesis that precludes design, exactly?

What is it about the RNA World hypothesis which makes it an ID hypothesis, exactly?

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Ben

Let me reply more fully to your post. You’ve suggested I inadvertantly proposed an ID hypothesis, and that’s true - if I’d wished to propose a hypothesis I’d have done it as a non-researching theistic evolutionist, not an ID proponent trying to prove design. And it would have gone something along these lines:

  • As a theistic evolutionist, I know that tRNAs are God’s creation, either by lawlike or contingent efficient means (or, conceivably, by miraculous means).

  • On the face of it, the accepted Neodarwinian mechanisms would appear to produce a circularity in their evolution, tRNAs being required for protein synthesis and large proteins for tRNA synthesis.

  • Ergo, this seems to be unevolvable in principle - though as a negative conclusion, this would be hard to demonstrate. So what efficient causes did God use, and were they lawlike or contingent (providential)?

  • But there is a hypothesis called “RNA world”, considered to exist prior to the onset of Neodarwinian genetic evolution proper, for which there are various pieces of evidence including ribozymes, which could (I am told) solve my problem by obviating the need for proteins to produce the first tRNAs. The recourse to such a hypothesis regarding my tRNA problem suggests my initial hypothesis was correct, and the circularity real, but this alternative may provide the answer by bypassing the circularity with a new theory

  • However, RNA world itself is not without problems, such as lack of any present or fossil examples of such organisms, the great instability of RNA compared with DNA outside cells, the limited enzymatic capabilities of RNA, the lack of good candidates for self-replicating RNA that has enzymatic activity and the variation necessary for a process analaogous to Neodarwinian evolution, and the difficulty of conceiving the transition from RNA to the present DNA/protein system. For these reasons, it cannot be more than hypothesis at present (as compared to Darwinian evolution, of which we have countless real examples), and my tRNA conundrum remains a conundrum.

  • Given the difficulties in replicating the key elements of RNA world, it would seem that, granted its existence, the creation of tRNAs would still be highly contingent and providential, rather than lawlike, to almost as great an extent as if RNA world were disproven.

  • And if enough evidence existed to raise RNA world to the status of theory, the very special outcomes of its chemistry (ie life) would be a good example of the lawlike design of the universe. And that, to answer jon, is why RNA world is a design hypothesis.

This one is replying to methodological naturalism. Sorry about the brain dump on Monday. haha

Nothing has a completely physical origin! But I understand what you mean, and you’re probably right. Unfortunately, it may take another 100 years for the scientists to realize that they’ve “hit a wall.” My focus is: What do we, as Christians, do about it in the meantime? What is our message to this science-worshipping culture?

You’re probably right about this, too. But, again, what is our response? Very many Christians think the wisest choice is to rail against the system and try to change it. I don’t see the point of this. The scientists have no incentive to change, as your example of the cocky grad student shows. And since the call for change is coming mostly from non-scientists, it falls on deaf ears. The only practical alternative, as far as I can see, is to lock science into the box that it has crawled into and claimed as its own – empiricism. Educate the public on the limits of science. Point out scientists who exceed their limits and draw unwarranted metaphysical conclusions. Show people that science cannot answer their ultimate questions. Science is a fundamentally incomplete picture. Purpose, value, meaning, beauty, love – these are the things that make life worth living, and science is silent on all of them. I believe that message will resonate with people, but … who knows?

Yes, I am highly skeptical that it is possible, for my own theological reasons. Nevertheless, I’ve been wrong many times before, so I wouldn’t discourage someone from making the effort.[quote=“Eddie, post:156, topic:5673”]
And the whole project is motivated by the desire to find an account of the origin of life that does not require Mind. Scientists are supposed to be objective, and not let their desires influence their research like that. In principle, a scientist should be supremely open to either alternative: that life required Mind to get started, or that it did not.
[/quote]

I don’t think the whole project is motivated by a desire to find an account that does not require God. This would require that every scientist involved in research into origins would be an atheist, which we both know is not true. Any scientific research into origins, since it follows methodological naturalism, is seeking only physical explanations for physical phenomena. A few people will be satisfied with that explanation, but most will not. “God has set eternity in their heart” (Ecc. 3:11). The vast majority of the human race recognizes that there is more to reality than can be seen or observed. The religious impulse is universal and virtually inextinguishable, regardless of what science says about the matter (pun intended). We’ll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks for the tips on Denton’s books.

Jon, I don’t see anything resembling a hypothesis anywhere in your comment. If you disagree, would you kindly highlight it? Most hypotheses can be stated in a sentence or two, and no one needs to wear a particular hat to state one.

BTW, why do you think that the RNA World would “exist prior to the onset of Neodarwinian genetic evolution proper”?

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This is in response to your second post (replying to my first).

By the grammar of the sentence, I take “the whole theory” as unpacking “evolutionary understanding,” ergo “evolutionary theory.” But … he bounces back and forth. The statement is part of a section called “Evolutionary Perspective,” which begins by comparing the origins of terrestrial plant life with lignin. That paragraph ends with the statement: “The belief that Darwin’s mechanism explains what needs to be explained is therefore largely an assumption.” The next paragraph tries (not very successfully, in my opinion) to offer an alternative explanation for the formation of coal prior to the appearance of lignin-degrading fungi. The third paragraph starts with the sentence that the whole theory is being called into question. Next, he says, " For example, gene duplication followed by adaptive divergence is assumed to be responsible for the development of the monolignol biosynthetic pathway [63]. However, the actual ability of this mechanism to develop new enzyme activities remains the subject of vigorous scientific debate." This “vigorous” debate consists of articles by Gauger and Axe, Gauger “and others,” Behe, and an article by O. Turunen, whom I am not familiar with. In any case, three out of four vigorous debaters are Axe, Gauger, and Behe. That seems to be his growing body of evidence. Hmmm.

I disagree. The author does assume God’s existence at the start, and his purpose is not to show people that there is a mind behind it all, but that YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is behind it all. It is a significant difference. Psalm 19 does not praise Mind, it praises God, the Lord. Paul does not say that all men have an intuition of design or “Mind,” but that the knowledge they have is of God, whom they neither honor nor thank. Paul, if I may speak for him(!), could care less if men recognized a mind behind it all. His primary concern for the entire letter is found in vv. 16-17: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,e as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’”

But I think you missed my most important questions in regard to Rom. 1:18-20.

Again, Paul says that men already have a rudimentary understanding that God does, in fact, exist, and that such knowledge has not done them any good because they suppress it in unrighteousness. Given those facts, it seems superfluous to seek to demonstrate a fact that people already know, deep down, but refuse to acknowledge in their unrighteousness.

I think Joshua is just extremely busy at the moment. I, too, am going to have to limit my participation here in the coming weeks. (Everyone – please stifle your disappointment! haha) You are right, I am positing an unnecessary either/or. But I do that because I honestly believe that is what the Bible teaches. Salvation is in the name of Jesus and no other. Others may pursue arguments for God from nature, but I would rather focus my efforts on the gospel. I suppose I shouldn’t be so hard on those who walk another path. I also repent from condemning Flew! God is the judge, not me. Doh!

True

Also true. I try not to say stupid things in the presence of atheists. Often unsuccessfully!

Ben, you were able to find a testable hypothesis when I didn’t make one, but not when I did. The only explanation I can think of is that ID makes testable hypotheses, whereas TEs (at least, this one) don’t.

Wasn’t the Neodarwinian synthesis based on the combination of known Mendelian genetics (now known to be based on DNA) with Darwin’s theory of natural selection based on observation of living forms? If that’s the case, we have no direct evidence that Mendelian genetics applied to RNA-world life, and no observations of RNA life on which to assume that natural selection operated analogously to the way it does today in RNA world.

I must say, I enjoy your thorough thought process, whether or not I agree with the conclusions. This is just a quick note. I’ll reply for real tomorrow.

I realize that. But the anti-supernaturalists are opposed to Mind because it opens the door to God, who is the one they truly fear. As well, most of the time, it just doesn’t feel right to me to speak of Mind when what I intend is God. Just think of me like an orthodox Jew who insists on typing G-d instead of God.