A number of Messiah debate questions

Faith & Science Conversation
1

I was doing a bit of research today regarding the Second World War due to a different post I had started about war. I came across this YouTube channel that had a couple of videos regarding the events of said war:

When looking for other videos, I noticed that he also had several other videos regarding Jesus, Christianity, and the concept of a Messiah in general.

To avoid unnecessary stress testing, I had asked ChatGPT if it knew what some of his claims on Jesus were (so I could see if the videos would help my faith or introduce unnecessary stress). Unfortunately, I think my chat bot hallucinated, and instead used sources from a number of Reddit posts as opposed to the channel:

IMG_2399
IMG_23991206Ă—919 165 KB

So, now I have a couple of questions from this, if anyone could help me with them.

  • Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God or the Messiah in the way mainstream Christianity teaches.

  • Many Old Testament prophecies supposedly do not fit Jesus.

  • The New Testament authors may have “reinterpreted” or selectively used Hebrew scriptures to make Jesus appear messianic.

  • Traditional Christian ideas about Jesus’ divinity are later theological developments rather than Jesus’ own teachings.

  • Some videos apparently challenge whether Jesus fulfilled Jewish expectations of the Messiah at all.

One video goes over the many other people than Christ who claimed to be Messiahs themselves. What are we also to make of their so-called “divinity?” Is Jesus unique or just another dime in a dozen?

(Also, I now think that my fear prior to watching the videos was unbiased. I watched this video and lo and behold it was mostly humor rather than claims against Jesus. So, now I solved one problem but am left with many other arguments that ChatGPT claimed came from this guy, who actually said none of those things. Man, AI is the future).

2

  • Hold on. I have a question. Do you or Jack Rackam, the dead pirate who has reincarnated as a Youtuber seeking moneyproducing video clicks, know what a “Messiah” is? I asked ChatGPT: “Strictly speaking, how many “Messiahs” can you list?”

  • Know how many ChatGPT could come up with? “Strictly speaking, from Rackam’s own list I would count three clear “Messiah” claimants:

    1. Jesus of Nazareth

    2. Simon Bar Kokhba

    3. Sabbatai Zevi

    A broader but still defensible count would be five, adding:
    4. Hong Xiuquan — claimed to be Jesus’ younger brother, not exactly “the Messiah.”

    1. Arnold Potter — claimed to be “Potter Christ,” an incarnation/embodiment of Christ.

    I would not strictly count Apollonius of Tyana, Haile Selassie, the Báb, Bahá’u’lláh, Cyrus Teed, Father Divine, or Kondraty Selivanov as “Messiahs” in the Jewish/Christian messianic sense, though some are savior figures, prophets, divine incarnations, or founders of messianic-type movements.

    Rackam’s transcript itself uses “Messiah” loosely, ranging from Bar Kokhba and Sabbatai Zevi to “God,” “son of God,” “second coming,” and “new Messiah” figures.”

1 Like
3

“Who were Hong Xiuquan and Arnold Potter and when and where did they live and what religion were they?”

ChatGPT: “Hong Xiuquan

Hong Xiuquan (1814–1864) was a Chinese religious and political revolutionary from Guangdong province in Qing China. He lived during the 19th century and led the enormous Taiping Rebellion (1850–1864), one of the deadliest civil wars in human history.

What religion was he?

Hong began within the world of traditional Chinese religion and Confucian education, but after repeated failures in the imperial civil-service examinations, he encountered Christian missionary tracts. He experienced visions and concluded that:

  • he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ,

  • God the Father had chosen him,

  • and he was tasked with purifying China of demons and false religions.

The religion he founded is usually called the Taiping faith or God Worshipping Society. It was:

  • heavily influenced by Protestant Christianity,

  • mixed with Chinese religious concepts,

  • but doctrinally very heterodox by mainstream Christian standards.

He rejected:

  • Confucianism,

  • Buddhism,

  • Daoism,

  • idol worship,

  • and Qing imperial authority.

Where did he live?

Primarily:

  • Guangdong Province (southern China),

  • later Nanjing, which became the Taiping capital (“Heavenly Capital”).

Was he “the Messiah”?

Not exactly in the Jewish sense. Hong did not primarily claim to be the Messiah replacing Jesus. Rather, he claimed:

  • Jesus was real and divine,

  • and Hong himself was Jesus’ divinely appointed younger brother.

Still, his movement had a strongly messianic structure and apocalyptic worldview.

Arnold Potter

Arnold Potter (1804–1872) was an American religious eccentric associated with the early Latter Day Saint (Mormon) movement.

What religion was he?

Originally:

  • a convert to the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints movement.

Later:

  • he broke away and developed his own sectarian claims.

Potter eventually declared that:

  • “the spirit of Jesus Christ entered into me,”

  • and he became “Potter Christ.”

So he evolved from Mormonism into his own highly individualized prophetic/messianic movement.

Where did he live?

Primarily:

  • New York (birth),

  • Utah Territory,

  • Australia (as a missionary),

  • later Council Bluffs, Iowa.

When did he live?

  • Born: 1804

  • Died: 1872

How did he die?

The famous story — repeated in Rackam’s video — is that Potter believed he would ascend bodily into heaven. In 1872 he reportedly leapt from a cliff near Council Bluffs, Iowa, attempting ascension, and died from the fall.

Was he “the Messiah”?

Closer than Hong, in the sense that Potter explicitly identified himself with Christ:

“Arnold Potter Christ, the Living God.”

But this was a tiny splinter movement, not a large organized religion.

The two men also differ sharply in historical scale:

Figure Scale
Hong Xiuquan Led a mass revolutionary state and civil war involving millions
Arnold Potter Tiny local sectarian figure

Hong altered Chinese history; Potter became more of an American religious curiosity.”

1 Like
4

Thank you for the help! Though, that still leaves all the other prompts that question even Jesus as the Messiah. I know there is a lot of evidence for his resurrection, but what does the potential for “old prophecies not lining up” mean for this?

5

Christ’s disciples would have been well aware of the Hebrew Bible prophecies. If they didn’t have any problem with them “not lining up” why should you? Would you be willing to die for someone who was a failed Messiah?

1 Like
6

I suppose that is a good point. Thanks for the perspective!

7

In the sixth chapter of John, a series of events occurs and Jesus says some things that disturb some disciples who followed him (but who were not the disciples that he himself had chosen), and:

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

1 Like
8

It’s been about 1,997 years since Jesus spoke in Capernaum, and Jack Rackam is the first guy to ever come up with “the other prompts that question Jesus’ as the Messiah.” Odd that he thinks so. But ChatGPT’s response is:

The objection’s have force only if one assumes that messiahship requires ordinary biological descent through Joseph. But that is exactly the point Christians deny or qualify. The key distinction is: “Son of David” can mean dynastic/legal heir, not merely biological male-line descent. In ancient royal contexts, legal sonship and dynastic succession mattered. If Joseph is legally Jesus’ father, then Jesus is legally incorporated into the Davidic line. Matthew especially seems to be making that kind of royal/legal claim. Second, the argument overstates 2 Samuel 7. The promise says David’s “offspring” will succeed him and his throne will be established. It does not explicitly say the Messiah must be conceived by ordinary biological generation through a human father. That later inference may be Jewishly understandable, but it is not a knockdown reading of the text. Third, the New Testament does not present Jesus’ messiahship as resting on genealogy alone. It rests on a cluster: Jesus is Davidic, proclaims the kingdom, acts with divine authority, suffers, is raised, and is enthroned. Paul’s formula in Romans 1:3–4 is important: descended from David “according to the flesh,” declared Son of God in power by resurrection. Fourth, “Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God or Messiah” is too crude. Jesus often avoids direct slogan-claims, but he performs identity-claims: forgiving sins, redefining Torah, speaking as Wisdom, accepting messianic titles, riding into Jerusalem symbolically, and answering the high priest in a way that gets him condemned. The Gospels present him as deliberately indirect, not non-messianic. Fifth, the “reinterpretation” charge is partly true but not necessarily damaging. The New Testament writers do reread Israel’s Scriptures christologically. The question is whether this is arbitrary proof-texting or a Second Temple Jewish mode of seeing Israel’s story fulfilled in a surprising way. The strongest point is this: Christian claims about Jesus as Messiah do not follow from a flat, pre-Christian checklist reading of Hebrew prophecy. But the weakest point is assuming that such a checklist settles the matter. Christianity’s claim is not merely “Jesus matched the expected Messiah.” It is more radical: Jesus redefined messiahship around suffering, resurrection, and enthronement.

But what does ChatGPT know, let’s ask someone like N.T. Wright, who has the “street credentials” that AI doesn’t.

9

Regarding the claim the claim that Jesus cannot be the messiah because 2 Samuel 7:12 says: “When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.” Somebody jumped from “Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus” to “therefore Jesus was not the offspring off David, “of his flesh and blood”. But … They forgot to check Jesus’ lineage according to Matthew and Luke. In Matthew 1:6, David is there. In Luke 3:31, David is there. How does N.T. Wright explain the difference? Cf. [16:46] of The Alpha and Omega: NT Wright on Jesus’ lineage and life after death, Wright begins to explain it in three ways. First, he reframes the entire issue away from modern biological precision. He argues that Matthew and Luke are not trying to provide “birth-certificate” genealogy in the modern sense. Instead, genealogies in the ancient Jewish world summarize Israel’s story and establish covenantal and dynastic identity. That matters because the argument against Jesus’ descendancy assumes that Messiahship requires strict biological descent and the Gospels are attempting to prove that biologically. Wright implicitly says: that is already the wrong framework. Second, Wright emphasizes that Matthew’s genealogy is theological and royal before it is genetic. Matthew is presenting Jesus as: the fulfillment of Abrahamic promise, the heir of David, the culmination of exile-and-restoration history, and the beginning of the “seventh seven.” So Wright’s approach is: Matthew’s point is covenantal-Davidic fulfillment, not DNA verification. Third — and this is the closest Wright comes to the actual objection — he says: “Jesus is not born of Joseph anyway, so he’s kind of grafted into the Davidic line or into a Davidic family.” That sentence is extremely important. Wright is effectively acknowledging: yes, the virgin birth complicates strict biological descent through Joseph, but the Gospel writers still regard Jesus as legitimately Davidic through incorporation into Joseph’s Davidic house. So Wright’s answer is not:

“No, Jesus really is Joseph’s physical descendant.”

Rather, it is closer to:

“The evangelists did not think messianic legitimacy depended on modern biological literalism.”

In other words, Wright weakens the force of the objection by changing the category of what the genealogies are doing. However — and this is important — Wright does not fully solve the problem for someone demanding (a) literal patrilineal descent from David, (b) through Joseph, (c) as an absolute messianic requirement. Some critic could still reply: “Fine — but the Messiah still must actually descend from David biologically.” Wright’s response is essentially: “the New Testament writers did not think about lineage in that narrow modern and rigid way, because Jesus fulfills Israel’s story at a deeper theological level.

You added your questions:

The objections only seem to work if Christianity is reduced to “Jesus matched a list of predictions.” But the New Testament claim is deeper: Jesus is Israel’s Messiah because in him Israel’s story reaches its climax — Davidic kingship, exile and return, temple, suffering, forgiveness, resurrection, and new creation. He did not simply claim a title; he enacted a vocation. Other messianic claimants said, “I am the one.” The Christian claim is that Jesus was vindicated by resurrection and came to be worshiped within Jewish monotheism, which is historically extraordinary.

  1. Did Jesus claim to be Messiah?
    Yes, but characteristically indirectly: kingdom proclamation, Son of Man language, royal entry into Jerusalem, trial before the high priest, and acceptance of messianic identification. He avoided the crude political meaning many expected.

  2. Did Jesus claim divinity?
    Not usually by saying “I am God” in modern doctrinal language. But the Gospels portray him doing and saying things reserved for Israel’s God: forgiving sins, judging the world, redefining Sabbath/Torah, accepting worship, identifying himself with divine Wisdom/Son of Man authority.

  3. Do OT prophecies “fit”?
    Some do not fit if treated as isolated prediction-checklists. The NT argument is broader: Jesus fulfills Israel’s story — exile, temple, kingship, suffering servant, new exodus, resurrection.

  4. Did the NT writers reinterpret Scripture?
    Yes. But “reinterpret” does not automatically mean “invent.” Second Temple Jews regularly reread Scripture typologically and eschatologically, i.e. “reinterpret” The issue is whether the rereading is coherent in light of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

  5. Was Jesus just one messiah among many?
    No, because most claimants either failed politically, founded small sects, or depended only on self-assertion. Jesus’ uniqueness, for Christians, lies in the combination of crucifixion, resurrection claim, transformed messianic expectation, worship within Jewish monotheism, and a movement centered not merely on his teaching but on his person.