A Fruitful Conversation with a Non-believer

The only thing that the notiong of God serves is hope. We as humans are afraid of whats after death. So its reasonable trough human pshychology that we need to find something even after that because our brain is not capable of understanding that we wont exist anymore.

The soul doesnt exist. No scientific evidence for it.

Besides that believing in a beign who has flaws and characteristics as we humans and such is in my humble opinion naive.

If God was real we woukd have known it 2000 years later or so later dont you think?

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You make my point for me. It is really difficult for some old-school atheists to even conceive that there could be any other notion of deity apart from the old gods like Zeus & Co. None of us can really wrap our minds around it (much less refute it). If we could, it wouldnā€™t be God. So donā€™t feel bad. Itā€™s understandable that you adamantly stick with the concept that you can knock down - and knocked down such gods have been. In that regard, weā€™ve all played the role of atheist for many points along history, and itā€™s [probably] been a good and needed service for humanity.

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I think that what @Astrid is saying is the question is not between who, but whether ifā€™s a who or a what that startedā€“whether one starts with the preconceived idea of intelligent creation, or from building blocks alone.

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Whatever " old school " is supposed to be other than a try at pigeonholing me and fling an auto- discredit on all on what I had to say.

I grew up in Hong Kong where Christians are a small minority, As if I cant "conceive of " divers
deities, something simply made up, again to discredit.

Same with your adamant knock down nonsense.

Vaguely amusing is how so few theists display the capacity to grasp that there are people who
font do any religion- everyone believes in something, they say. Then you are your own god, they say.

Noted too how you deleted my words about you
defining god, which kinda reverses your complaint about me onto yourself.

Oh, and I dont " play". Im not part of your " we ".

Exactly. Thanks

Nick,
Iā€™ve watched your slide into hopelessness with sadness. I wish the Spirit would give me a word of wisdom to share with you, but none seems to come to me right off hand. Most I can say is that your view of ā€œhopeā€ is, I dare say, niggardly and, IMO, mighty bold of you, which I suspect is boldness born of youth and ignorance and unlikely to be of any use to you in the future, and may lead you first into more grief and calamity than you can imagine.

In lieu of words of wisdom, then, allow me to share a true story with you before you continue your slide.

Iā€™m acquainted with a young woman who is a relative, by marriage, of a near-relative. I knew her parents before they met and married, and over the forty or so years that Iā€™ve known them, Iā€™ve heard reports of events in their life that described a descent from hopeful youth through poor or bad decisions, into increasingly difficult circumstances. Scroll forward a number of years, and the much younger woman is married briefly and living with her two children, and unemployed husband, with her parents, in an apartment. More years later, the husband was gone, the womanā€™s children are older, and the womanā€™s parents moved from the apartment, as much to get away from the woman and her problems as to find a better apartment. With the support of her parents gone, the young woman quickly became homeless. Given the choice between seeing her children taken into custody by the state or taken in by their grandparents, the womanā€™s parents took them in but not the young woman herself, until the kids were old enough to make their own way through the world.

As a homeless person, the young woman, without a husband and ā€œfreeā€ of her kids, lived with other homeless folks in the same town that her parents and children lived in. The years continued to scroll by, and after a few years being a ā€œmemberā€ of the homeless community, the young woman, now older, was rather well buried in hopelessness. So it should come as no surprise to you then, that the hopeless woman decided living was so miserable that death was preferable to a miserable life without hope. So she doused herself in gasoline and set herself on fire.

The word I hear from others is that she managed to burn herself over at least 65% of her body. After at least two months in the hospital, she was released and ā€¦ taken home by her parents with whom sheā€™ll be living for an unknown period of time.

An interesting bit of trivia that I heard was that in a conversation with her father shortly after her self-immolation attempt, she told him that she wanted to live.

Personally, Nick, I think youā€™re wrong. Sure, there are humans who are afraid of whatā€™s after death. But I suspect that what discourages folks from choosing what they hope will be no-life after death is that getting there isnā€™t guaranteed to be painless and instantaneous.

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Sorry if I am ungracious. I get a little hot when confronted
with baseless assertions about myself.

And given your words just typed there ā€¦ I just deleted my own last response which was too snarky in its own right. Thanks for showing some grace to me.

Deleted xxxxxxxx

Snark is a self indulgence for us all to avoid.
Hoping you will as i asked try to see whst i am actually saying!
We could have a good meeting of minds here.
And again, sorry about being irritable.
Hot temper is a self indulgence ive not mastered.

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Id choose the most comfortable ,good living,not internal life here on earth rather than the painfull,full of struggles life to get to heaven
And that comes from an ex-christian who has gone trough depression and many other difficulties along the way. By all means choose whatever you want. But know that there are people who believe in god and in the afterlife because it gives them hope

The only one who can make a paradise its you . In this life. Theres no second chance. No sweet angels or a father figure(like god) to watch over you.

Full atheism now? My condolences. Ive been there before and felt existence was bleak and meaningless. Living without Godā€™s light is tough.

Vinnie

No its not. You have to find your own meaning. Just because you had that doesnt mean everyone who is an atheist think like that. But yeah id rather think that way than hoping that a sentinel beign is watching me up from above and in every difficulty he basically is ā€œwith meā€ somehow and he helps me. Take a little pitty for yourself and realize that only you have an impact on yourself. Id recommend starting by not going to Sunday mass. See how relaxing it is to do something different and invest to yourself rather than praying .:wink:

Theres no such thing sadly. Wish there were though

It is the same definition of God, namely the self-existent uncreated One, that has been used in western literature for two millennia, and before that in Hebrew, so I donā€™t think that is a fair accusation. He calls himself the ontological ā€œI AMā€ in the Bible.

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For me, investing in God is the only true way to invest in oneself. Prayer is the most peaceful thing I can do. Not sure why you found it stressing. I few that whole ā€œfind your own meaningā€ mantra is just a house built on sand until you ground yourself in God. We think we are masters of the universe or something. It seems like pride and it has no lasting impact or real foundation.

Vinnie

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Soā€¦what is your disagreement with what I said?

I like beign master of myself. Theres no pride in it. You rely on someone to dictate and save your precious life whike i rely only on myself. Now that i had the time to go back into thesw difficult ,life changing and so on situations you know what i realized ? It wasnt God who saved me or heard my prayers and went me trough them . It was my human determination not to give up and actually do something about my situation because i have one chance in this life. So ill try and live the best of it.

You rely on God . I rely on myself.

Ita like you are trying to defend your situation as if you were relying on your parents still. Its not good. So take reaponsibility . I doubt prayer or faith in God has helped you in any real life situation. And since the real life situations are the ones you can feel id stick to them.

We have noticed that atheist thought is utterly mysterious to theists.
Including the " we thinkā€¦masters.umiverse."
which, whoever " we" are, sure isnā€™t me.

Does " been there" mean you fell away from the church then returned?

The direct implication that @Mervin_Bitikofer was disingenuously trying to ā€œdefine his way out of a problem.ā€