Yet another discussion of universal salvation

Yes - however Paul is an example of what can happen in this life.

Theres no such thing in Orthodoxy and im glad here in Greece we have orthodoxy.Some ideas presented here or in western christianity are poisonous.As another orthodox in the forum have said sinners will pay.Theres no such thing as repenting after death. Nowhere in the bible is that.Nor universalism.

God is just and vengefull.And some sins are unforgivable.Especially against his children .

At least thats what i imagine a good and just God would be . However seeing the behaviour of a lot of christians today they are going to hell. 95% of will go to hell.Or whatever you like to call it. Away from God

In what way? Not in any way that you or anyone you know have experienced.

I think universalists have to deal with many difficulties. The most difficult aspect of this view seems to me to be their assertian that even if one person were damned, it would show that God is incompetent. This strikes me as extremely mistaken.

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No mistake.

Yeah im sure the Christians Paul killed are ok with this.To be honest im baffled they accepted him later in the church and not took revenge immidietaly

I am taking Paul at his word as found in scripture.

Paul was accepted by Christians as an apostle.

Why? What did he know? By what epistemology? He and you both.

Wrongfully so. I mean someone kills your own kind and then you welcomed him like nothing happened.

In what human mind this is oK? In what evolutionary term? In what justice system? Im baffled indeeed.

You guys literally forgive evil.Literally.Thats why evil exists.Because there are you Christians that tolerates it

Let me count the fallacies.

When youre done you can list them as well so i can know them too

There is no point whatsoever. What would you do with them?

And this is a difficulty for … the universalists!?

Ummm … yeah! Or at least we’re supposed to. That’s kind of the whole Christian thing. Why are you even still here, Nick, if you don’t get this? We’re not going to stop forgiving (except in those times that we ourselves walk away from Christ). And thank God for all that profligate mercy, because you are imagining that the world is neatly divided into those evil people out there, and a few of you, the comparatively ‘righteous’ ones who don’t need nearly so much forgiveness as those evil schmucks. Jesus has words for that attitude, and you will find them totally offensive.


So you are accepting the fact that you allow evil to exist right? That you have the parent with no boundaries attitude?Someone is evil and no repurcations?No punishments for himself to learn?No ostracization no shaming no nothing.Just wipe it off and welcome. And that person is gonna change by some miracle?

Do you know what your “brothers” in the old testament did to sinners? And guess what God was cool with it

Why would i need A LOT OF forgiveness when im living my life not hurting anyone while other Christians evil schmucks behave like spoiled Children that their parents allows them to do what they want. You forgiving evil has consequnces in the world and society.

Honestly i find the God Of Judaism much more appealing and true than the God of Jesus.Now that i think of it.

Because this is irrational and unscientific reasoning.In what scientific behaviour does this show? In what animal?What species? What kind of activity goes about in the brain that forces a person to forgive and love his opponent?None.Zero.Zilch.Everyone who thinks and acts that way is subject to mental health in my honest opinion

That’s true in the here and now … where we live, to be sure. The bible also persists in orienting us toward hope - toward an eschaton in which “God’s will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” In other words, it seems to call us toward an attitude of “yeah - things suck now, but just wait … God will prevail.” Nowhere are we given permission to foreclose on that hope. And if we write off any person as “too far gone to evil” then we’ve declared that there are limits to how far or how long the good shepherd will search. Paul seems to provide a precedent for “writing people off” when he declared in hot indignation that a certain man be “handed over to Satan” in order that … wait for it … “his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord!” (1 Corinthians 5:5) Even Paul knows it is not his or anybody’s place to declare eternal damning judgment on someone. But damnationists today like to imagine they know better than Paul or Jesus. They declare instead that “all this hope stuff has limits.” Sure - we’ll allow for enough hope to deliver you or me through those pearly gates, but those _____ - the vilest schmucks over there? - they’re beyond any reasonable hope. Or so say the traditions of men.

We are not always to be rescued from the crappy consequences, but that’s because our real salvation may be waiting in the wings! And the crappy consequences may be the only tool that can bring us to repentance. We hope. And it is our eternal hope, foolish as it seems to everybody else - another part of the Christian thing.

It’s perfectly and important AND true that the thought of evil ending up where we dwell for eternity would cause discontent to some.
Imagining my worst enemy on paradise with me makes me so irritated and furious ,and its reasonable other people feel the same. And you should as well

Indeed we hope and have faith that the day of salvation would come and we would understand why it has been, and how it will be. I am also reminded that while those of us who may be schmucks and repent of our sins, reminded of this as we are purged, it also a joy to know that God will heal every infirmity, wipe every tear, comfort all those who had none in this life, and finally we would understand why Christ came to heal and restore us to God. Christ had a lot of time for those who suffer the injustices of this world.

The last shall be first, and the first may be last. How is that for justice (in this world that too is foolish).


I am pointing out that if some reason in this manner, they are mistaken.

No - I absolutely should not. To do so would be to perpetuate all the very evil you so rightly deplore. I will not join “team evil”, Nick - the best way to join the side of murderers is to become like them with their incapacity to forgive.

If it was still your “worst enemy” there with you, then it could not be heaven. You cannot enter the Kingdom of God until you are willing to stand by your former worst enemy, now reconciled to you as a friend. It is totally understandable that this is a hateful thought to you Nick - it is to all of us while we walk in the flesh. It is not reasonable to expect people to be able to forgive what others are even still willingly and unrepentantly doing to them. It takes nothing short of a miracle that we can ever reach such a point at all. But reach it we had better - if we ever hope to leave such lives of hatred. When you cling to it, it tends to cling to you.