Would Humanity be better off without the promise of an afterlife?

Hi Patric

Yes you can be deceived by others into doing something and then think it is right. I study Psychology, (and I am thankfully almost finished) but I am not very strong on Philosophy. So in answer to your question about truth I am going to give you my simple view of it, and then leave you with a link to William Lane Craig’s view on truth. He answers better than me by far.

What is truth? It is the same question than Pontius Pilate asked Jesus. Jesus said “I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life”. According to John in the Bible, Jesus is also the Word. Jesus is truth, and His Word as in the Bible is truth. I believe that Jesus is who He claimed to be therefore I can believe Him and His Word. Please go and check out William Lane’s link. I would like to know what you think about that.

Hi Patrick,

I find the notion of living life to the full an outlook we can all adopt - this is helped by an inner peace, including peace of mind, in spite of the difficulties we may face in life. I am also convinced that those people who see the good in themselves and in other people are as religious as people can get. Just to add a biblical touch, Christ stated He came so that we may live an abundant, fruitful, and joyful life.

The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous.

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@Patrick

Agreed that belief absolutely does determine behavior – so it is unavoidably a dangerous thing. And atheism, or the belief that we humans individually or corporately are the highest or only existing authorities is one of those possible belief systems, and not immune from the same critique.

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Agree. But I think that basic human instinct or naturally selected genetic wiring is to show empathy, concern, and cooperation. It is innate in parenting (stronger in mothers than fathers) and cooperation and concern for the tribe’s children, then the bigger group and even to nature itself. Of course, human reason can say “get all that I can get and not care about anyone else” But it seems like given the choice any human being (Christian and non-Christian) will help another person in need at least up to a point.

@Patrick

I sympathize with you regarding your younger brother’s condition. I lost my younger brother several years ago—we found him hanging in the basement! He was suffering with bipolar disorder for about a decade before he decided to take his own life. Therefore I can empathize with what you’re going through—it was very sad for us to experience the suffering he was going through, including, of course, the following aftermath.

I hope you can reach your brother with the words of comfort regarding the power of forgiveness in that he can move forward towards a positive new future. It’s all about the power of forgiveness—forgiveness for others and forgiveness for self.

@Eddie

“Of course I am sorry to hear about your brother’s depression. I hope he is receiving all proper medical help and much family love. I hope, however, that you are not asserting a causal relationship between his depression and his Catholic theology. That would be an invalid inference.”

It’s admirable, Eddie, that you have concern for the mentally ill… however, wouldn’t that concern be better expressed if your theological reasoning would acknowledge the harm and irreparable damage that this causal relationship has on the mental health and well-being of the individual and society at large—the U.S. has just experienced yet another mass killing of innocence (another case that has religious overtones all over it). As a theologian how does one reason himself through this? How is it justified to keep society in ignorance?

Many personality problems, bouts of depression, and mental illness that countless children develop in early childhood are experienced because parents are “taught lies” and “kept ignorant” from their religious institutions about the facts concerning life and death. This ignorance on young minds has disastrous effects on their decision making and the ensuing consequences that pursue them for the remainder of their lives—usually with catastrophic results. Without the proper tools to experience life and navigate through it… it’s usually a lost cause.

“Millions of people hold to traditional Catholic theology without becoming depressed. And many people are depressed who are Protestants, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc.”

There is a simple answer to this distorted reasoning—a certain percentage of the millions of people who hold to traditional Catholic theology without becoming depressed are those descended from parents who hold to upright “traditional family standards” and thus have “the pertinent tools required for raising healthy children” (these also exist in any other religious group). The remaining percentage “have no moral conscience, thus do not feel any depression whatsoever.” (These also exist in any other religious group). The many people who are depressed who are Protestants, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc. “learned to control their depression” (these are the certain percentage of millions of people who hold to traditional Catholic theology who hold to “traditional family standards”). The rest are those who fall through the cracks of religious ignorance.

Hence if you understand what I’m getting at—it’s the “traditional family standards” (which obviously includes knowledge of the facts of life and death) that give parents and children the appropriate tools to direct their lives. Religious myth, fantasy, and superstition “don’t provide the necessary tools” for the health and welfare of the family. Ergo, “religious indoctrination has failed the family and society.”

Those who have read my past comments understand that I am not against the true Judeo/Christian faith. The true Judeo/Christian faith has no part in religious myth, fantasy, and superstition.

@Eddie

let’s get to the point… I’ll begin with a brief description of where Christendom gets its idea of Hell.

The Hebrew word for Hell is Sheol (the pit). The Greek word for Hell is Hades (the hole). Hell is the pit or the hole (mankind’s common grave where we all end up at death). Gehenna, as the bible depicts, was initially where the idolatrous and apostate Israelites and the followers of various Canaanite gods, including Baal and Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire. Later Christian commentaries state that in Roman times fires were kept burning there and the Valley of Hinnom (the physical location of Gehenna) became the rubbish dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were thrown. The book of Revelation describes the place where “the beast and the false prophet” were both “cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone” and “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 19:20, 20:15)—location and/or significance yet to be fully determined. Perhaps this has something to do with the ring of fire?—an area in Pacific Ocean basin where a large number of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions occur.

Another point to make is what people witness in the near death experience. People who come out of this experience say they met God, Jesus, angels, or relatives and friends they knew. Although, these visions are what we experience every night as dreams. I would presume that a wickedly evil person would have a terribly horrifying near death experience. This would be a good candidate for where people get this idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell. However, this is but just a last conscious dream vision that people get before the lights go off.

In the second part to your response to Patrick’s comment you wrote;

“Your brother would not have been taught as a child simply that he was going to hell; he would have been taught that one goes to hell only if one dies in mortal sin – and that there are remedies for the state of mortal sin.”

First, every person who dies goes to hell (Sheol - the pit, Hades - the hole)—not only those who die in mortal sin. The biblical story states that Jesus was in hell for three days, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Mathew 12:40)

Second, it is true that there are remedies for sin:

“Venial sin; a transgression against the law of God that does not deprive the soul of divine grace either because it is a minor offense or because it was committed without full understanding of its seriousness or without full consent of the will.” (Dictionary.com)

However, wouldn’t mortal sin be a different story altogether? If mortal sin implies sin deserving death how can it be remedied?

“Mortal sin; a willfully committed, serious transgression against the law of God, depriving the soul of divine grace.” (Dictionary.com) Mortal sin; a sin regarded as involving total loss of grace. (Collins English Dictionary)

I was born and baptized in the Catholic Tradition and was taught the sacrament of penance and the effects of extreme unction;

“Penance; a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.” (Dictionary.com)

Although, it wasn’t too clear (in those pre-teen years) what mortal sin was, I was definitely sure that it involved the predatory nature of violence and murder—by grace I was steered clear.

You wrote;

“in addition to sin, there is forgiveness; and God wishes all to be saved, not punished,” and that, “Dante is not all Inferno; the Divina Commedia ends with Paradiso. You need to remind him of Paradiso (and of the aid afforded by Purgatorio).”

The problem that many have with this is that many people (including myself) have suffered tremendous difficulties in the “Purgatorio” and in the “Inferno,” while others who knew these truths at an early age (which I only recently learned) were able to navigate and direct their lives steering clear of all the detrimental effects that life throws at you while making all the right decisions to live a wonderful life. Well… the God that I know would have an even playing field, then again… we know who the god of this world is:

“Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.” (Revelation 18:8-10)

Even though many see the “situational dilemma” as a “the ends justify the means, or the benefits outweigh the harms” issue, there will be an end to the madness that reigns upon the earth.

@Patrick,

How is your brother?

Tony,
Thank you for the excellent historical accounts on the creation of hell in ancient societies. But I would like to talk about the concept of Hell in today’s society. Today, to be terrorized with the treat of an imaginary hell, and an all to real withdrawal of parental love is a serious abuse. As a father, I’m increasingly proud of young people who manage to escape the prison of their parents’ beliefs.

Thanks for a asking. I went to his place yesterday as usual. He wasn’t there. Later I found out (via a charge to his debit card that he went to the grocery store). I consider that a good thing as he did go out in rainy weather to get a few necessities. He doesn’t answer his cell phone nor answers anybodies texts. I will stop by again today.

Thank you, we have been hoping for that also.

Some ten year olds are being told that they would go to hell if they continue to have thoughts and feelings that aren’t “normal” like playing with dolls or liking girls instead of boys. Where is the line between love and abuse fall?

Certainly not. I am very much against the state getting involved into things it shouldn’t. What I am talking about is when parent’s beliefs hurt children. I think we would agree that teaching children that jihad is their responsibility and that if you matryer yourself you will go straight to heaven and if you even think about not being a good Muslim you should be killed and go straight to hell - is all child abuse.

It is amazing, you and I could agree what is child abuse by a parent in all religions except your’s.

He is one to think about - how about everyone agrees not to teach anything about religion to children until they are in say High School. Would that be okay? I think not, because once they are in High School their minds would reject their parent’s religion as they reject all their parents idea, rules, hair style, speech, morals etc.

I know it is a non starter. I would never agree to it myself as when my kids were growing up I was very careful on what they heard regarding Catholicism. I was very pleased when they finished the mandatory religious instruction with learning what I summarize as “just about nothing” concerning church doctrine or principles. At confirmation, they knew astonishingly so little, which were my goals. But then I had to picked them up from school after 911. They had to know more on how beliefs can cause harm.

To move the discussion along. :grinning: