Did I maybe just answer that?
How so?
I canât be wrong?
Seriously, though, it is as real as life itself to anyone who knows God, as real as my earthly father. (Recall my kidney account.)
Well then I hope we never disagree because I have it on good authority that I canât be wrong either. I tell myself as much all the time!
Whilst I agree with you in principle, what of wonderful, lovely, dear and godly saints who wrestle with doubts every day? We are each given a measure of faith, for some it seems like a deep well that can never run dry, for others it seems like a precious vial that they must guard, by Godâs grace, every day of their lives.
Yes, there are such, but they neglect reasons for confidence and maybe are not speaking the truth to themselves all the time (see this discussion, above and especially below the point.)
Iâd gently suggest that it is often their scriptural reasons for confidence and the Spirit at work as they speak the truth to themselves with gets them to church on a Sunday morning and to the end of each day with the faith in one piece. I believe a person can still have joy in the Lord in midst of such doubt.
I wonder what others think, to what extent is emotional mood a good indicator of spiritual vibrancy?
Where would your kidney account fit into the spectrum of âproofâ? Do you feel that you could doubt the existence of God after that event? If you couldnât doubt, would that mean your free will was taken away?
It doesnât â there is no âspectrum of proofâ since there is no proof. But it is positive evidence.
I couldnât doubt the existence of God before it (due to six+ decades of positive evidence) and since âthe eventâ continued to reinforce and certify it, what would have changed?
âYou have to believe in free will, you have no choice.â I.B. Singer
Going back to the opening post:
It would seem that God has not kept himself hidden from you. Am I wrong about this?
No, you are not. Do you have an underlying question?
There is a big difference between personally knowing God and demonstrating it. Of course it is possible. I believe I have it. But all the âproofsâ or evidence are personal to me and second hand at best to anyone else. Which means, at the end of the day, Richard Dawkins can still claim the God Delusion.
We are back to:
âFor the believer no proof is needed and for the sceptic no proof is enough.â
Richard
Iâm a bit confused, to tell you the truth. We atheists are told that God wouldnât make his existence obvious through positive evidence because God loves us. However, you seem to be saying that you have that type of evidence for the existence of God, and I would assume that you think God still loves you.
You also wrote:
It seems that God has revealed himself to you to the point that you have to believe in Him. Again, I am saying all of this with the caveat that I may have seriously misunderstood what you have written. I am just trying to understand why all of this seems so contradictory.
Mr Cutler, thank you for your notes. Please clarify for meâI glanced at thisâare we citing reasons from the Bible to confirm what we say the Bible says?
Letâs think about it from another point of viewâwould we offer the same solace to a Muslimâto believe in the Qurâan because the Qurâan says it is true? Is it fair to claim certainty where we would not grant it to someone of another faith?
Surely God knows our frameâHe made us, after allâand knows that we can only accept what is logically true. He made us that way.
I appreciate Greg Boydâs âBenefit of the Doubt,â in which he recounts his journey from atheism to Christianity, with multiple houses of cards of his faith falling in the meantime. George Macdonald wrote, âYou doubt because you love truth;â and Austin Fischer, in âFaith in the Shadows,â wrote, âPeople donât abandon faith because they have doubts. People abandon faith because they think theyâre not allowed to have doubts.â
Thanks for your discussion.
âThe true meaning of the word skepticism has nothing to do with doubt, disbelief, or negativity. Skepticism is the process of applying reason and critical thinking to determine validity. Itâs the process of finding a supported conclusion, not the justification of a preconceived conclusion.â
âBrian Dunning
And?
There is no real proof of God! Nothing to support (or deny) the conclusions by rational thought.
But faith is not rational. That is the whole point of it.
Richard
But faith is not rational. That is the whole point of it.
Dear Richard,
I would like to correct your statement above. [Blind] faith in illogical doctrine is not rational. True faith is based in logic and experience. I have faith in myself based on the obstacles that I have overcome with the help of my guardian angel. I have faith in the words of Jesus because have been echoed by many heralders throughout history.
It is love and understanding that bring us everlasting life, not blind faith.
Best Wishes, Shawn
Ps. The apostles required proof that Jesus was the Son of God, including examining His wounds, why should any believer be less critical?
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see,
God is a god of faith. That makes him unprovable. If God is visible than their is no faith.
I have (friendly) trouble with this line of thinking. Because later, in Hebrews 11, people like Abraham and Gideon and many others are commended for their faith. But for them it (faith in the existence of God) was not invisibleâthose in the Faith Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11 all enjoyed supernatural experiences that proved Godâs existence in ways that we can but envy.
There is a big difference between personally knowing God and demonstrating itâŚ
But all the âproofsâ or evidence are personal to meâŚ
That is a decent summary and pretty much echoes the OP.
We have had discussions before about testimony as evidence, and hearing first hand testimony first hand is good evidence and should not immediately be dismissed. It is better than the pejorative âsecond-handâ.
Iâm a bit confused, to tell you the truth. We atheists are told that God wouldnât make his existence obvious through positive evidence because God loves us.
That is not what you are told â that is your spin on what you are being told, so I understand your confusion. You are told that you will not get scientific, positivist, empirical evidence. That is not the same thing as simply good evidence. The evidence you do get is not empirically verifiable and repeatable, thus not scientific, but my co-instants, or rather, the co-instants that I am delighted to be given, even including kidney cancer and its timing, are indicative of several things, not the least of which is that they are evidence of Godâs providential M.O. and his sovereignty over time and space. And itâs not just me â innumerable other Christians and Old Testament believers have similarly been recipients of Godâs providence.
It is also wonderful evidence that he is personal.
You also wrote:
Imagine if God reveals Himself to the point that everyone âhas toâ believe in Him (if it would be possible). The problem with such a scenario is that there would be no love relationship with Him, it would be forced relationship.
I did not write that. That is a quote (the citation is directly below it).
It seems that God has revealed himself to you to the point that you have to believe in Him. Again, I am saying all of this with the caveat that I may have seriously misunderstood what you have written. I am just trying to understand why all of this seems so contradictory.
You are correct in that at this point in my life that I cannot not believe in God, similar to believing in the existence of my earthly father. But when I was an infant, did I understand my dadâs existence and that he was my father? It was learned and I had to allow testimony as evidence, as we all do every day. I certainly had to allow the possibility to begin with. Probably the first thing relationally that I learned was that I was loved.
I would refer you back to @Tihamerâs excellent perception,
âŚwe humans are not always logical.
In fact, experiments have shown that we are reasoning creatures, and we often make up the logical-sounding reasons after we have already made our choice (for non-rational reasons).
I personally know a few people who have admitted shutting out the possibility of God after they got mad at him for letting something terrible happen to them. They describe this process only after they returned to the faith (are they making up reasons again? Maybe. But I doubt it; itâs painful for anyone to admit being wrong).