Why There is No Proof of God

A favorite CCM song is Blessings by Laura Story:

We pray for blessings
We pray for peace
Comfort for family, protection while we sleep
We pray for healing, for prosperity
We pray for Your mighty hand to ease our suffering
All the while, You hear each spoken need
Yet love is way too much to give us lesser things

'Cause what if your blessings come through raindrops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise

We pray for wisdom
Your voice to hear
We cry in anger when we cannot feel You near
We doubt your goodness, we doubt your love
As if every promise from Your Word is not enough
All the while, You hear each desperate plea
And long that we’d have faith to believe

When friends betray us
When darkness seems to win
We know that pain reminds this heart
That this is not our home

What if my greatest disappointments
Or the aching of this life
Is the revealing of a greater thirst this world can’t satisfy
What if trials of this life
The rain, the storms, the hardest nights
Are your mercies in disguise

God is the most valuable thing there is.

If you have him, as Job did, then what else really matters? All we need to want (check out that subtitle :flushed:, an apparent oxymoron :grin:):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004DEPEO6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Storms Are the Triumph of His Art

Away, Despair! My gracious Lord doth hear:
Though winds and waves assault my keel,
He doth preserve it: he doth steer,
Ev’n when the boat seems most to reel:
Storms are the triumph of his art:
Well may he close his eyes, but not his heart.
– George Herbert

Human beings are subject to all manner of diseases including those of the psyche. My mother was born manic depressive but she was a Christian. I think the only thing worse than suffering deep depression is to do so while feeling that your suffering is due to some fault in your faith, especially if your faith community reinforces that erroneous belief.

Enjoy your current joy in your faith but I hope your beliefs about what real faith does for one doesn’t cause you to lose that faith when you come back down to earth.

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I’m sorry to hear that Mark. Please, accept my apology on their behalf. It pains me to say that this is not the first story I’ve heard about Christians reacting poorly to mental health issues. However, we are getting better.

My own position is that mental health issues are no more a sign of a fault in one’s faith than a fractured wrist or a chest infection. Certainly, Christians can pray that God will heal a broken wrist or a chest infection, but the vast majority of cases still require expert medical intervention. I don’t see mental health issues any differently. Practically speaking, the best thing a Christian community can do for a person with mental health issues is to encourage them to see a medical professional.

Might mental health issues impact the vibrancy of one’s faith? Sure, but so might any number of non-cognitive affecting medical conditions ranging from a broken bone that limits mobility whilst it heals to a diagnosis of cancer. I believe humans are integrated beings, what we experience in the physical impacts the emotional and spiritual, and vice versa.

Not sure anyone is saying this necessarily, but just in case, I certainly don’t think mental health issues are a sign that one’s life lacks meaning. Tough a feeling of meaninglessness can be a symptom of some conditions. Similarly, a feeling of meaningless might contribute to the onset of certain conditions - though this is far from universal. Even so, correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

Apologies, if that is somewhat off topic.

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That’s kind of funny, really. Maybe you have forgotten my kidney account already? And I am a septuagenarian with multiple health issues. (Thankfully, none of them are really debilitating, but they are certainly inconvenient and limiting.) I am in my Father’s hands and I trust him and his timing.

(And you appear to have forgotten this, too.)


There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear…

It’s not our perfect love! It is our Father’s, and he only does what is good for both him and us. So whenever I catch myself being anxious about ANYTHING, I can go crawl up on Father’s lap even when court is in session in the throne room, so to speak, and his strong arms will comfort me and shield me.

If you are at all familiar with the New Testament, you should recollect Paul’s trials in the book of Acts and the Pauline epistles, and he was joyful through them all.

Get real, yourself. :slightly_smiling_face:

I respectfully disagree. For me, the best thing a Christian community can do is return to its roots and start praying again for all the lost souls. The majority of mental illness is spiritual in nature, not biochemical as most medical professionals would have you believe.

What is the connect with the lost souls and mental illness? Here are three exceptional medical professionals that devoted their lives to the spiritual causes of mental illness, by acknowledging the lost souls in their patient’s lives, and treating the cause of the illness, not the symptom.

  • Fiore, Edith. The Unquiet Dead: A Psychologist Treats Spirit Possession . New York, NY: Ballantine, 1991. Print.
  • Kübler-Ross, Elisabeth. Questions and Answers on Death and Dying: A Companion Volume to On Death and Dying . New York: Touchstone Book/Simon & Schuster, 1997. Print.
  • Wickland, Carl August. 30 Years among the Dead . San Bernardino, CA: Borgo, 1980. Print.

If Christians returned to the tradition of praying for the dearly departed and the lost souls, we would have less mental illness in humanity.

I wish that were true, but it is not. The science of the mind is no where near as advanced as that of medicine and the body. So I stand somewhat between you and Shawn on this. But to counter Shawn, the only thing worse than going to a mental health professional is going to a non-professional who doesn’t have adequate training or education at all, but just a bunch of religious/spiritual dogma. I have personally had a number of bad experiences with medical doctors and family who have had even worse experiences with so called mental health professionals, so competence varies greatly in both fields but I think it is worse in the mental health profession. But… this is still a poor excuse for for going to a non-professional instead. What can I say?

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Dear Mitchell,
I was just addressing @LM77 comment regarding what Christian communities should be doing, not what a patient should. I agree with you 100% that there are very few qualified, effective mental heath professionals, mostly outside of school medicine.

Yes I think it is quite likely that there are non-professionals who have talent in this. The problem is that there are many more people outside the profession who will do you a great deal of harm – people who pretend to understanding and skills when it is little more than nonsensical opinions. At least in the profession there are some standards of education and accountability – not enough perhaps, but some.

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Dear Mitchell,
I do not want to argue who is worse, but this is my limited personal experience. It was MD’s that got my niece addicted the anti-anxiety drug Paxil and my nephew to heroin after the prescribed ADHD drug became ineffective. My brother’s long battle with depression and antidepressants came an end after his third suicide attempt and the NDE that came with it.

Like I have said… I and my family have had bad experiences also. But these are bad basis for generalizations. These are the cause of some of the worst human behaviors like prejudice.

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Shaun. I always appreciate reading an alternative perspective. I’m willing to acknowledge that on occasion there could be spiritual factors influencing a person’s mental health. However, I do have a few questions.

  • The devil, it seems, is in the details, how would one know that a person is being affected by a ‘lost soul’? How does one diagnose it?
  • You say the majority of mental health issues are spiritual, but what about the ones that aren’t, how does one tell the difference?
  • What exactly is a lost soul and what do you mean by them being in a patients life?

Hey @mitchellmckain, thanks for bringing your science background to the conversation. Always, helpful.

I don’t disagree. However, I would suggest that ‘the best we’ve got’ is better than ‘nothing at all’. I don’t think a lack of understanding is a reason to discourage folk from getting professional help. But then again, I’m not sure you are saying that medical mental health care should be avoided either, is that fair?.


@Shawn_Murphy and @mitchellmckain, you both made several comments that I’d like to unpack a bit more if that is ok:

(I’m so sorry to hear that. Really, I am).

There are bad mental health practitioners as there are bad doctors, dentists, scientists, and church leaders. But I wonder if there is also an important context here that I am missing. So a couple of questions, if that is OK:

  • Please, could you tell me a little about what mental health care looks like where you/your family are from?
  • what does the general approach to treatment look like?
  • Also, please could you indicate if the health care system is nationalised or privatised? In your opinion, how does this impact mainstream mental health care?

Thanks.

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everyone would be wise to notice the sleight of hand

Human science has no scientific evidence for the existence of (reported) supra-terrestrial God in heaven

However, numerous people around the world, throughout human history, have reported receiving meaningful intelligible cogent articulate communications (e.g. Voices, Visions & Dreams) from heavenly powers

Thousands of years of pan-planetary reports of “Contact” like events constitutes a mountain of direct witness testimony evidence – in the top tier of evidence at Law

Thus, the truth is, humans have a library’s worth of “police reports” of direct witness testimony evidence of “Contact” like events from heavenly realms

None of those “witness statements” has yet been corroborated, we have no tangible scientific physical forensic evidence

But witness testimony by credible mature adults cannot be dismissed lightly. And we do have Prophesies (Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation) whose ability to forecast human affairs hundreds & thousands of years ahead of time certainly seems supra-human, supra-terrestrial

humans have lots of evidence, direct firsthand witness testimony evidence, albeit no “hard” physical scientific forensic evidence

You bring up some good questions, and points out that mental health in the USA is problematic. Public mental health is underfunded, which means you usually get to see the professional via telemedicine on a screen and get a prescription. For some things that works (meds can give a schizophrenic a life when in past years they would have been institutionalized), and for some it is only a bandaid. Of course, the underfunding and poor compliance contributes to a lot of homelessness in today’s society, not that all homeless are mentally ill, but a lot are, including a cousin and nephew of mine.

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Dear Liam,
You ask some important questions and I would like to address them properly, so please bear with me. Let me start with an illustrative personal account. 2 1/2 years ago my 20-year old daughter suffered a stroke in the left frontal cortex. She was initially treated at Penn State Hershey and did her in-patient rehab there. She the went to MGH for out-patient neurology and Spaulding Rehab. The neurologist at MGH shared the 4 CT’s and 7 MRI’s with her network of 32 colleagues. 16 diagnosed arterial thrombosis and 16 venous thrombosis. 1 1/2 years later, after follow up visits to MGH and additional visits to comprehensive medical facilities, no one had a diagnosis for her chronic fatigue, dizziness and headaches. (How can you have a headache when you are taking 325 mg of aspirin everyday?)

We finally took her to functional neurologist. Dr. Schmoe had reviewed all her scans and her history prior to our visit. He personally performed every exam during her stay. After two hours, this is what he told us. She is suffering from dysautonomia irritated by damage to her basal ganglia. Her fatigue is from POTS, with a resting, standing heart rate of 140 bpm and headaches caused unregulated, rapid eye movements (forcing the neck muscles to constantly compensate). Dr. Schmoe took no scans, did no blood work, and prescribed no drugs. All he did was what Hippocrates prescribed - listen to your patient, don’t see more than six per day, and do no harm. In ten hours of office visits with therapy, she was a changed person.

I use this concrete example to demonstrate the complexities that exist in our world of specialized medicine, in a purely neurological case. When you add the spiritual variable, it can seem overwhelming in modern medicine. Dr. Edith Fiore understood the overwhelming obstacles and wrote a challenge in her book to modern medicine - she said: “We (psychiatrists) are the only doctors who spend time with our patients and we need to use that time to discover the underlying cause of (mental) illness.”

From Dr. Fiore’s work, I will give one relatively simple explore example of how lost souls can cause mental illness. She speak of a patient suffering from schizophrenic symptoms who has lost her twin sister in an auto accident a number of years ago. As the patient recalled the death of her sister, Fiore found an important clue. As her sister was dying, the patient had prayed, “Dear God, I will do anything to help my sister.”

The the sister died, she had an open invitation to stay with her sister who had promised to do anything for her. Instead of “going into the light”, she stayed with her sister, exerting her will on the patient’s life which grew stronger over time. This made the patient indecisive at times and doing things she would normally not have done when her sister’s will was strong. Once Fiore realized the invitation that her patient had offered, it was straight forward to remind the invitation and ask God to take this lost soul to Him.

Doing no harm, in my opinion, would be first eliminate the environmental variables from the patient’s life, including the spiritual ones, before suspecting a chemical imbalance in the brain and administering a pharmaceutical regiment with known potential side effects.

Thanks for listening!

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Hello again, Dale,

I would like to add a few more things regarding Job’s trial that I spoke of in my last post. He passed the test on the grounds of his statement, "

“For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth (Job 29:25):”

The core of life’s meaning and purpose is to realize and to know above all things that Jesus is our personal redeemer.

ELD

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I might rephrase that to say “to know Jesus, our personal redeemer.” He is knowable as our best Friend and Elder brother.

C.H. Spurgeon’s ‘mere professors’, my ‘believists’ (both of whom would say “our personal redeemer”) and the adversary know that he is a personal redeemer.

This exchange between T_aquaticus and Dale perfectly captures something very important.

What T_aquaticus has done is equated meaning with pleasure. But as Viktor Frankl discovered at Auschwitz, while people can live with suffering, pain, and the lack of pleasure, they cannot live without a purpose and meaning to their lives.

Mathematically, anything you do in your short lifetime (even if nanotech can extend it to thousands of years) is just the tiniest spark in the lifetime of the universe, much less eternity. This is why your meaning must be bigger than you. A lot bigger, if it is going to be significant Otherwise, as the Criminologist pointed out in Rocky Horror Picture Show (a sacred text in some eyes), “And crawling on the planet’s face, some insects called the human race. Lost in time, and lost in space… and meaning.”

If it’s any consolation, Ecclesiastes did the same thing, when he was young.

“All is vanity… I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me. And whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil. Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun.”

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