Why science, especially theoretical science, is not objective, totally

Most scientists don’t read philosophy and that is a shame. Imre Lakatos is really the only philosopher who captures too often what I see in the scientific method. In some sense he is similar to Kuhn about science being paradigm oriented. I am posting this because of a discussion in what arguments people should stop using thread, which said those atheist physicists are ruining everything again, criticizing the idea that their bias’ might influence their theorizing. Lakatos thinks science defends the main theoretical pillars of its world view by changing anything and everything out on the logical periphery. And it is a bias.

I want to be sure to differentiate theoretical from observational science here. Observations using equipment is the best we can do in approaching objectivity in science, but even there, there are problems. But theory is NOT observation but an EXPLANATION of the observations in a unified story of how Nature works. How we handle fine-tuning is a theoretical issue. Lakatos says:

“The story is about an imaginary case of planetary misbehaviour. A physicist of the pre-Einsteinian era takes Newton’s mechanics and his law of gravitation, (N), the accepted initial conditions, and calculates, with their help, the path of a newly discovered small planet, p. But the planet deviates from the calculated path. Does our Newtonian physicist consider that the deviation was forbidden by Newton’s theory and therefore that, once established, it refutes the theory N? No. He suggests that there must be a hitherto unknown planet p’ which perturbs the path of p. He calculates the mass, orbit, etc., of this hypothetical planet and then asks an experimental astronomer to test his hypothesis. The planet p’ is so small that even the biggest available telescopes cannot possibly observe it: the experimental astronomer applies for a research grant to build yet a bigger one.’ In three years’ time the new telescope is ready. Were the unknown planet p’ to be discovered, it would be hailed as a new victory of Newtonian science. But it is not. Does our scientist abandon Newton’s theory and his idea of the perturbing planet? No. He suggests that a cloud of cosmic dust hides the planet from us. He calculates the location and properties of this cloud and asks for a research grant to send up a satellite to test his calculations. Were the satellite’s instruments (possibly new ones, based on a little-tested theory) to record the existence of the conjectural cloud, the result would be hailed as an outstanding victory for Newtonian science. But the cloud is not found. Does our scientist abandon Newton’s theory, together with the idea of the perturbing planet and the idea of the cloud which hides it? No. He suggests that there is some magnetic field in that region of the universe which disturbed the instruments of the satellite. A new satellite is sent up. Were the magnetic field to be found, Newtonians would celebrate a sensational victory. But it is not. Is this regarded as a refutation of Newtonian science? No. Either yet another ingenious auxiliary hypothesis is proposed or. . . the whole story is buried in the dusty volumes of periodicals and the story never mentioned again.” Imre Lakatos, “Falsification and the Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes,” in Imre Lakatos and Alan Musgrave, Criticism and the Growth of Knowledge, ( New York: Cambridge University Press, 1970), p. 100-101

Similar things are occurring with the search for Planet X going on right now. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/hypothetical-planet-x/in-depth/

Lakatos I believed used Newtonian physics because he was writing prior to the widespread knowledge that the outer stars in galaxies do not obey what we predict from general relativity; that knowledge broke through in around 1980. When Lakatos said they would look for a cloud, well in the Modern version of Lakatos’ tale, we have a cloud/halo of dark matter surrounding the galaxies being postulated. Kind of eerily similar to what Lakatos said. But there are problems with this fix.

“But now another cluster spoils the party. At a distance of 2.4 billion light-years in the constellation of Orion, Abell 520 also consists of two colliding clusters. But according to a team led by Andisheh Mahdavi and Henk Hoekstra of the University of Victoria in British Columbia, the dark matter in Abell 520 does not appear to be tied to the galaxies. Instead the lensing observations-carried out with the 3.66meter Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii-indicate that enormous amounts of dark matter are concentrated in the core of the colliding pair, where most of the hot gas is found but few galaxies are seen. As the team writes in its October 20 Astrophysical Journal paper, this dissociation between dark matter and galaxies "cannot be easily explained within the current … dark matter paradigm." Govert Schilling, “Dark Riddles,” Scientific American, Nov. 2007, p. 32

Further, years of searching have found nothing. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2117865-no-sign-of-seasonal-dark-matter-after-four-years-of-searching/ A recent group thinks it is ordinary gas; time will tell if they are right.

But no one is altering their view of gravity based upon the observations–and Im not saying they should, I’m just saying the theoretical bias makes us want to change other pillars of the theory, not the central pillar. And that makes theoretical science not completely objective.

Has science abandoned supersymmetry even thought it absolutely requires a partner particle for every known particle (called sparticles), and theoretically they should have been seen in the LHC but they are all missing in action. Supersymmetry is too valued an assumption to give it up that easily.

So when it comes to things like the fine tuning of the universe, I would contend that one of the central pillars of the world view of physicists is that of materialism and they will change everything peripheral to that view in order to maintain it. It is what we humans do. It is what Lakatos says we will do. Since saying we won the cosmic lottery by buying one ticket isn’t very convincing to save the pillar of materialism. But the multiverse is very handy-we won the lottery after buying an infinitude of tickets

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I think there are some valid points here. It isn’t realistic to expect science to be totally objective: after all, scientists are only human, and peer pressure and career advancement are very real factors, for example. Cases sometimes are over-stated and over-hyped.

However, it’s important to make sure we’re taking a realistic view of the situation. Some people (YECs in particular) make a lot of noise about “man’s fallible wisdom” as a get-out clause to let them reject any and every scientific finding that they don’t like. That simply isn’t realistic. To claim, for example, that “man’s fallible wisdom” is so bad that it consistently fails to distinguish between thousands and billions of years, amounts to claiming that tens of thousands of geologists worldwide are all so incompetent that they should be flipping burgers in McDonald’s.

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The basis of YEC instransigence is their faith that a certain view of the Bible is a must. They believe that if their view of Genesis is false, Christianity is false and thus, in fact, they are doing precisely what Lakatos is saying people do–only they are doing it by creating a personal set of observations which don’t have any basis in fact. They are defending the central pillar of their world view.

We are entitled to our own interpretation of the facts but not entitled to our own facts, and that is where YECs go wrong. At least that is my view of what they are doing wrong.

Randy over in arguments we shouldn’t use noted that scientists also have the career advancement issues we all have and we all are loathe to claim things that will kill our career. YECs also have social pressures to remain faithful to their groups. Leaving YEC is a very painful event, not only for the person but for the community around him, and if one does leave it, he will likely be pushed away from his friends.

I want to tell one personal story of confronting bias in science (name changed). I worked for a really hard nose guy once. People actually said they were sorry to see me go when I was assigned to his group, meaning someone wanted me fired and thus put me in his group. He fired people with great regularity and gusto–he would come into the office in a black suit, black tie, black Patten shoes, white suspenders and a white carnation in his lapel. That day, everyone knew someone was going out the door. lol

Anyway, this guy said there was no such thing as a scissor fault in geology. That is where on one side of the fault the seismic dips, say north, and the other side dips south. And I had the misfortune to have very good seismic data that showed precisely that with friends telling me not to show those lines and to change my maps. They were sure if I said it was a scissor fault I would get fired.

I put both lines up on the wall, with a map in between them showing the lines location and said, "tom, I wouldn’t call this a scissor fault, but the seismic says it has opposite dip across the fault. Maybe the seismic has been processed wrong, I was told it wasn’t wrong, so I had to honor the data I saw. " And I survived. lol

Make no mistake, EVERY human organization has unwritten rules about what ideas are acceptable and what aren’t. Cross the line and one’s career is over. I honestly don’t know why people would think scientists are exempt from this very human reality.

Thus when people tell me that the multiverse was chosen out of the clear blue and totally objectively, I say bunk. It was chosen with a goal in mind. It is the confluence of the idea that our universe had a beginning that made them have to have multiple big bangs out there in this totally unobservable infinitude of universes. Then it became quite handy when the finetuning came along

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@gbob, that’s probably true, though I don’t recall actually saying that scientists are likely to have presuppositions–they’re better than the run of the mill, though we all have our own presuppositions. I guess the key is whether we’re willing to try to work against them, or take them as a badge of honor.

I just talked to a good YEC friend recently about being an evolutionist Christian, and he was quite taken aback, I think. Sadly, he said his life depended on what he believed (meaning his salvation), so if it didn’t jive with his understanding of Scripture, he wasn’t going to believe it.

Since many of us evangelicals mistakenly say that holding a set of beliefs in the face of struggle is our ticket to heaven, no wonder why it’s hard for us to discuss doubt safely with other Christians. In our parenting Sunday School class today, they talked about how it’s essential to welcome our children’s doubts and questions, though; hopefully, that’s a sign of a good trend.

George Macdonald’s quote, “You doubt because you love Truth,” and Austin Fischer’s remark, "“People don’t abandon faith because they have doubts. People abandon faith because they think they’re not allowed to have doubts.” are encouraging in helping people to face honest questions head on.

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@gbob, that’s probably true, though I don’t recall actually saying that scientists are likely to have presuppositions–they’re better than the run of the mill, though we all have our own presuppositions. I guess the key is whether we’re willing to try to work against them, or take them as a badge of honor.

Hi Randy, I agree that we have to carefully think about the data that goes against our position. We all squirm when some factoid challenges our preferred view. But I disagree that scientists are particularly better than everyone else. Used to be 200 years ago, the educated class all took logic as a formal class. Few do today and I think that hurts science. I managed people (and did it myself) who made up theories of where oil was. It had to incorporate a huge diverse set of fields from sedimentology, mineralogy, paleotology, geology, geophysics, gravity, oil generation theories, economics and the people had to know these and more areas well. Of course, some did and some didn’t, and some were illogical and nothing seemed to help them get more logical. Unfortunately, I was famous in one office I managed for having said that one geophysicist had missed geophysics 101. Someone blabbed on me. lol

I just talked to a good YEC friend recently about being an evolutionist Christian, and he was quite taken aback, I think. Sadly, he said his life depended on what he believed (meaning his salvation), so if it didn’t jive with his understanding of Scripture, he wasn’t going to believe it.

Since many of us evangelicals mistakenly say that holding a set of beliefs in the face of struggle is our ticket to heaven, no wonder why it’s hard for us to discuss doubt safely with other Christians. In our parenting Sunday School class today, they talked about how it’s essential to welcome our children’s doubts and questions, though; hopefully, that’s a sign of a good trend.

George Macdonald’s quote, “You doubt because you love Truth,” and Austin Fischer’s remark, "“People don’t abandon faith because they have doubts. People abandon faith because they think they’re not allowed to have doubts.” are encouraging in helping people to face honest questions head on.

Yep. I struggled for about 12 years with whether to become an atheist, had many conversations with Wil Provine, and the question that most haunted me was if the early Christians were as bad at handling observational data as are the YECs how can we trust that Jesus arose? Handling data for a Christian is important; following the materialistic whims of scientists as if they are the cat’s meow and final word on the metaphysical nature of reality is a fools errand. One never earns their respect until we give up ideas about God.

Well, it sounds like you have done some good thinking. What I meant is that with science, the scientific method and questioning is at least some defense against the idea of taking things on because they feel good. And I do think that those who truly pursue science have trained to do that; it’s their job to teach the rest of us this method.

Science only is geared to look at testable things. By definition, it’s not supposed to deal with nontestable things, like faith; so we sometimes perceive a scientist as being biased against metaphysical things. Bear with me as I argue that it’s not the case.

My brother in law is a physical therapy assistant; I’m a family physician. He observed, wisely, that we all act according to our training; if a carpenter, and I hold a hammer, all the world’s a nail; if I’m a physician, I sometimes throw a pill at something too readily; if a physical therapist, a manipulation or series of stretches, for example.

To ask a scientist to quantify the unquantifiable would be like asking a physician to use a hammer to fix a broken bone. In fact, it’s even a farther stretch–because carpenters do have a sort of science, whereas metaphysics have nothing that is quantifiable or repeatable.

Thus I don’t ask a scientist to work God into an equation. I learn from him/her how to break things down. They can answer how, but not why. Does that make sense, or am I miscommunicating?

Thanks for your insight.

that’s a great question. It’s one I struggle with, too. However, one thing that I keep finding comfort in is that “as a father has compassion on His children, the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him; for He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust” If He made us, then He knows our limitations. If we don’t understand, or perhaps even can’t fully accept the resurrection, He is, after all, Truth and Justice; He would not judge us for not being able to accept that which we are unable to bear. It’s His responsibility, after all; and He is much kinder than our human contemporaries.

NT Wright and Marcus Borg had different opinions on the Resurrection, for example, and I truly think God knew and accepted them (accepts them?) based on what’s right–not on some unattainable goal. It’s a lot easier for me to believe in and follow closely after a God of Justice than one who tries to impose impossible hoops for us to jump through.

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Hi Randy, Your wrote:

To ask a scientist to quantify the unquantifiable would be like asking a physician to use a hammer to fix a broken bone. In fact, it’s even a farther stretch–because carpenters do have a sort of science, whereas metaphysics have nothing that is quantifiable or repeatable.

Thus I don’t ask a scientist to work God into an equation. I learn from him/her how to break things down. They can answer how, but not why. Does that make sense, or am I miscommunicating?

You are not miscommunicating, and I would agree that to expect a nonChristian scientist to incorporate God would be asking too much. But then, in your set of analogies, why do we let scientists decide for us what theology is?

I didn’t mention the other side of my struggles with whether to be an atheist. I have made a lot of people mad with this anaology, and it is just an analogy. I think it challenges them in a way they don’t like and most say it doesn’t represent them. That is fine, it is what to me, represents what I think they are doing. If I am wrong, so be it. I have yet to see an argument against my Great green slug example that convinces me of the error of my ways.

The other part of my struggle with atheism was what I perceive (Im trying to say this diplomatically), as the surrender option in apologitics. I am assured that there is nothing historically or scientifically accurate in early scripture but yet, it is true theology. My atheist friends won’t accept that; I don’t see how inaccurate things are a great recommendation for that religion. Case in point. If the Bahai god is really god, why does the Kitab-I-Iqan say(I have read most of the founding documents of the major religions):

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.”
“Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touch-stone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?” Baha’u’llah, "Kitab-I-Iqan, (Williamette, IL: Bahai Publishing Trust, 1950), p. 157

Does the God of the Bahai know nothing of chemistry? Can they or a primitive tribesman from Brazil, who believes the Great Green Slug created the world not also say, “yeah, nothing factual in my religion’s account of nature, but the theology is true and profound?”

I found no comfort in what I am sure many people here on this board may feel, that we never defend anything where science and scripture clash by just admitting it isn’t historical or meaningful other than as a folk tale. If it works for you OK, it doesn’t work for me. I found solutions to my issues, but no one likes them and I will not go into them here. Suffice it to say with ingenuity one can accept the observations of modern geology/biology and come up with a scenario that says it could be true, not that it is true.

Don’t hang me for just expressing how I see certain views.

It was an event, early in my Christian walk that I couldn’t get over which held me to Christianity. I don’t want to start a 3rd thread. Cancer is sucking my strength and keeping up here with one is enough. It was a prayer I prayed once that came true that held me fast to Christianity and there was no way I could interpret it as a fluke. It was my personal kinda Damascus road and it meant little to those who were there with me. But I needed it as an anchor point years and years later. I was like Ellie Arroway at the end of the Movie Contact, who had an experience and couldn’t prove it to anyone. The ending in the book was better in my opinion, but not useful as an analogy to my experience with that prayer.

As to the kinds of God we are willing to follow, IF God is a Klingon war god, we best do what he says. It does us little good to refuse to follow whoever and whatever the real God is. He and his attributes should not be a product of our minds. In my opinion.

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I am sorry for your cancer. As a primary care physician, there are few things I hate more than that (not that it’s any different from others who have any experience with the disease). May your battle be punctuated with awareness of His presence and grace.

I’m not sure what the Slug story was about, but that’s OK. I know one thing–if we err on the side of imagining God as too harsh, trying to fit Him in our experience, He is just as gentle. Jesus, who said he was the best revelation of God’s character, invited the little children to come to Him. Could God be any worse? And I love being my children’s father not just because of their company, but because of their need for correction and teaching. Being created imperfect is not a sin; it’s a joy to interact with them, and correct them for life. I would be a bad father, indeed, if I corrected them out of vengeance for every disobedience (especially if they were created unable to avoid sin). As an earthly father, I know how to give good things to my children; would not our heavenly Father know much more?

God bless.

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Thanks, it is. I am a 99.99% outlier. They really don’t keep statistics on guys like me cause they don’t live long enough but as close as I could get to statistics when I was diagnosed said a very small chance of making 5 years. I have made 16, and outlived 3 prognostications of my death–loads of folk been prayin for me. And no one should ever feel sorry for me. I have lived a life few get to live. Im going back over to Wigner. working on some new arguments I might post tomorrow.

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They’re not? What about MOND? Or Emergent Gravity? There’s a lot of work being done in these areas, but its not easy because GR works so well. For example there’s a nice summary on Wikipedia of what kinds of tests alternatives to GR would have to undergo:

Scientists do consider alternatives all the time. Supersymmetry was certainly quite promising yet what do people do when experimental constraints get tighter? Either they make their models more consistent with the data or discard them.

It is? That’s not how Physics works or what fine-tuning really means. What do you mean though by ‘change everything peripheral to that view?’

See my post in Arguments people should stop making

Pevaquark, I agree with you that a few are trying to change to MOND. Generally though they are not thought highly of. I do kind of like MOND but it has a ways to go to be viable… I should have tempered my ‘nobody is changing’ gravity. Let’s say the mainstream isn’t changing gravity–would you agree with that?

Logic in a scientific theory is something like territory. If you have ever filed a patent, you know the lawyer wants to capture as much “intellectual territory” as he can. That is the term he used and it is apt. There are beliefs in the theory that one is loathe to give up but changing some outlier assumption to incorporate data that one doesn’t like is perfectly ok.

Because theories of MOND don’t actually work better than GR. The also are generally just empirical fits to data and can’t explain much more than this. There’s also lots of evidence for dark matter. These two videos I think are really helpful explanations:

[quote=“pevaquark, post:14, topic:40618”]
Because theories of MOND don’t actually work better than GR. [/quote]

I think that is what I said in my post: “I do kind of like MOND but it has a ways to go to be viable”

But we get redundant here.

Just to put in my $.02 re the whole MOND (MOdified Newtonian Dynamics) thing. In my understanding, MOND was originally developed specifically as an alternative explanation to the so-called “Dark Matter” (DM) theory of galactic and meta-galactic gravitational anomalies that have been observed. Evidently, MOND actually does work better than DM in explaining why galaxies don’t fly apart. DM seems to work better on a much larger scale in explaining the motions of galaxies relative to each other. Personally, though, since despite decades of trying, DM has never been directly detected or created in particle accelerators, I honestly think it’s a bogus concept. And yet, most cosmologists seem to cling to it with the fervor of a fundamentalist Christian insisting on the “New Earth” theory despite all the evidence to the contrary. Which in turn helps me “show up” science as hardly the “objective” enterprise it claims to be. So I’m willing to bet that some future theory of gravity will eventually come along as the best explanation for all the cosmic-scale gravitational anomalies that have been observed. And DM will go the way of the geocentric cosmos, phlogiston and the luminiferous ether…

Woah that went pretty extreme really fast. Thankfully there’s a lot more evidence for dark matter than what you think which is why it’s not so easy to get rid of. You could watch the videos that I just posted or you could watch this lecture I made for a class.

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But this goes to show that scientists are actually more objective. They do consider these alternative hypothesis and only the ones that pass rigorous experimental tests survive. Some may reach the level of ‘scientific consensus’ but haven’t yet.

None of it direct observation. That’s my whole point. It’s all inference from the cosmic gravitational anomalies that have been observed. There isn’t even a consistent theory about what type of particle DM might actually be. Of course, I can’t “prove” that it doesn’t exist. I’m really basing my sense of this on my familiarity with the history of science and the fact that the great majority of the scientific community has sometimes “bought into” ideas (like the luminiferous ether, for example) that have later proved to be non-starters. My guess (and I’ll admit at this point it is just a guess) is that DM will ultimately be seen to belong to this illustrious lineage of discarded scientific theories.

By the way, I did watch one of the really interesting videos above and it didn’t change my mind – in fact, it actually confirmed my view. I’ll watch the others when I get some more time but, like I say, I’m basing my view more on the history of science than the theories themselves. In fact, watching the video reminded me of the way the ancient cosmologists (up to Copernicus) tried to save the geocentric theory of the universe by adding epicycles to planetary orbits to explain their observed reverse motion. Then they were forced to add epicycles to the epicycles, etc., etc. I’m seeing a similar process with DM…

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