Why is it that genetic similarity = common descent? Isn't that an interpretation not an observation?

@Dredge

Right. What proves that the six days of creation is false are the following:

A) far more diversity in the human genome than 2 humans starting to mate 6000 years ago could reasonably hope to produce;

B) the impossible nature of hyper-evolution that would be required from animals that came out of the Ark less than 6000 years ago to explain the sheer number of species on the Earth today.

C) the lack of inter-mixing of large mammals and dinosaurs either at the bottom of the fossil column or at the top of the fossil column.

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No! I’ve deprived myself of a chance for birthday cake? I’m sorry I was mean to the model!

[quote=“Lynn_Munter, post:22, topic:36023, full:true”]

No! I’ve deprived myself of a chance for birthday cake? I’m sorry I was mean to the model!
[/quote]Think on the bright side - you won’t have to spend hundreds of dollorson a gift. You weren’t mean; but I think I should restrict invitations to creationists only, otherwise fights will break out after a few drinks.

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[quote=“T_aquaticus, post:19, topic:36023, full:true”] The only reason we would expect to see a nested hierarchy is if evolution is true.
[/quote]
… or if there is a Creator God … who is quite capable of coming up with a nested hierarchy.

Oh, very well—I shall consider myself narrowly escaped!

There is, and He is, but the question remains," Why would He?"

But once again, why would we expect it to look that way if everything was the product of special creation? Why would it look exactly the same as evolution? Why would God go to all the trouble of making it look like something it isn’t? The problem for special creationists is that like YECs they have a pile of evidence pointing to a specific conclusion, and the best they can come up with is “Well that’s not actually what happened, God just deliberately made it look like that’s what happened”. Where’s the logical chain of reasoning, and the evidence for such an assertion?

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Why did He make the sky blue, grass green and Dredge super-handsome?

Ha! No doubt you are a handsome dev…elopement of God’s creation! And while blue and green often clash, in nature they are amazingly beautiful.

Seriously, when nested hierarchy gives such a strong indication of relatedness, I have to ask, why would God put such a huge stumbling block to those who he wants to save, were it not a true representation of creation?

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Hahaha, is this a falsifiable statement? :stuck_out_tongue:

It seems to me that evolution produces some false predictions as well. Where are the “innumerable” transitionals that Darwin predicted but have never been found? Why did Gould state that the fossil record is characterised by two things, “sudden appearance” and “stasis”? And this, “The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology”?

It’s not a stumbling block to me … and many other creationists. Any explanation I could offer as to why God’s creation is as it is would just be a childish and pointless guess. I don’t ask why the Lord made the sky blue and the grass green, I just accept it.

Unfortunately, yes : (

Here’s a short video listing many of the transitional fossils found to date: Almost Every Single Transitional Fossil Discovered (2017) - YouTube

Also a fairly detailed list:

There’s loads of them out there which begs the question, why did I (and many other anti-evolutionists) not know about them and assume they weren’t there?

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But it can be a stumbling block to others. It is as though you look,at the blue sky, and someone is telling you it is really yellow if you are a good Christian. You see the blue but are told you must see something different.
I agree that we do not know the mind of God, but do we not know his character and that he is truth?

Yes, unfortunately it is a stumbling block for many folks. I remember a nun from my highschool days who told us, “They lied to us. We weren’t created, we evolved”. A few years later she left her order and became a civlian. I’m sure evolution presented some kind of crisis of faith to her.

This will sound like a weak argument to some, but perhaps cooincidence has produced an illusion of evolution. For example, God created the other primates, which are very similar to humans in many respects. Is this a result of evolution, or just a cooincidence that creates an illusion of evolution?

Here is another possibly weak argument that my fragile, egg-shell mind just concocted: Perhaps God knew His creation would one day be interpreted as evolution and so He is using it as a test to see who will stick with Him and who will reject Him in favour of the great minds of science. (Qualifier: Don’t get me wrong; I don"t mean theistic evolutionists are such rejectors; I’m talking about apostates who give up on faith altogether.)

I’m not an expert on fossils, but here are some interesting quotes from people who are: -

Re Ape to Man fossils:

“All these trees of life with their branches of our ancestors, that’s a load of nonsense.” Mary Leakey, archeologist and paleo-anthropologist.

Richard C. Lewontin, Prof. of Zoology, Harvard: “Look, I’m a person who says in this book [Human Diversity, 1982], that we don’t know anything about the ancestors of the human species. All the fossils that have been dug up and are claimed to be ancestors, we haven’t the faintest idea whether they are ancestors … All you’ve got is Homo sapiens there, you’ve got that fossil there, you’ve got another fossil there … and it’s up to you to draw the lines. Because there are no lines.”

Re Methodology:

Colin Patterson: “It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another … But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test.”“I don’t think we shall ever have any access to any form of a tree (of life) that we can call factual.”

Pierre-P. Grasse: “Assuming that the Darwinian hypothesis … [paleontologists then] interpret fossil data according to it … The error in their method is obvious.”

Re Horse Fossils:

Niles Eldredge, “I admit that a lot of that has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs (in the American Museum) is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable, particularly because the people who propose these kinds of stories themselves may be aware of the speculative nature of some the stuff. But by the time it filters down to the textbooks, we’ve got science as truth and we’ve got a problem.”

George G. Simpson: “The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature.”

Bruce McFadden, FL Museum of Natural History and U. of FL: “… over the years the fossil horses have been cited as prime example of orthogenesis [“straight-line evolution”] … it can no longer be considered a valid theory … we find that once a notion becomes part of accepted scientific knowledge, it is very difficult to modify or reject it.”

Re Lack of Transitionals:

David M. Raup (Prof. of Geology, University of Chicago): “Also there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found - yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.”

Robert Barnes (in his book, Invertebrate Beginnings): “The fossil record tells us almost nothing about the evolutionary beginnings of phyla and classes. Intermediate forms are nonexistent, undiscovered and not recognized.”

Prof. E. J. H. Corner (Botany Department of Cambridge University): “… but I still think that, to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favour of special creation.”

David M. Raup (Prof. of Geology, University of Chicago): “Also there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found - yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.”

Have a blessed day Dredge, Someday all will be clear to us as pass through the veil.

A quick search pulled up a “quote mine project” page – (Quote Mine Project: "Miscellaneous"). I really don’t know how many of these quotes are addressed, but I imagine you could find more context and explanation for quite a few of them.

I don’t really know enough paleontology to be considered a novice, but my general impression is that the fossil evidence for transitional species exists, but still not to the extent that scientists of previous generations expected or hoped for. Maybe @jammycakes can add some actual knowledge.

@Dredge,

These quotes are taken out of context - - and I think you know it. And in those cases where they aren’t taken out of context, the person being quoted is taking the findings out of context.

To prove me wrong, all you have to do is explain why there are no horse fossils mixed in dinosaurs, or dinosaur fossils mixed in with horses, and why all the other large mammals follow exactly the same pattern disproving contemporary existence.

Let me know when you have something.