I have often wondered about that as well. Perhaps we aren’t seeing a real rise in atheists. Instead, we are seeing an increase in the number of atheists who are comfortable admitting that they aren’t Christians/theists.
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You may be right in that theists obsess about Dawkins more than is necessary. The problem is, at least as I see it, theists have not confronted his arguments and logic with anything convincing to future scientists in the next generation that the Darwinism Dawkins espouses is incomplete and that Wallace was correct in pointing that out after The Descent of Man was published. Of course, EVEN IF Dawkins arguments were convincingly discredited, that would not automatically guarantee Europe’s 'return to the Faith. But it should give support to the position that scientism does not have all the answers. Faith can, at least occasionally, lead to the Truth more surely than can science, as witnessed by Pope John Paul’s proclamation that Christians can consider that the current theory of evolution explains the development of all animal life, but it does NOT explain why humans are different. And, although he won’t admit it, Dawkins in his book Ancestor’s Tale, fully agrees with the Pope.
The Intelligentsia of Europe have been leaning away from religious practice since the ‘enlightenment’. Nothing is likely to reverse that. But there is a youth movement that looks for Spiritual fulfillment and which rejects materialism as the sole source of human happiness. We ought to do what we can to encourage that.
Al Leo
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Pitting science against faith doesn’t seem like a winning strategy, at least to me. Labeling it “scientism” only seems to exacerbate this problem.[quote=“aleo, post:22, topic:36613”]
The Intelligentsia of Europe have been leaning away from religious practice since the ‘enlightenment’. Nothing is likely to reverse that. But there is a youth movement that looks for Spiritual fulfillment and which rejects materialism as the sole source of human happiness. We ought to do what we can to encourage that.
Al Leo
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Even as an atheist I strongly support the idea that young people, and ALL people for that matter, search for their own path through life and discover more about themselves and the world around them. I think atheists and theists could stand together on this point.
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I think what he is saying is that Science doesn’t have all the answers for everything all the time. It doesn’t.
I’m always interested in the latest numbers. I’ll look for some information about that.
Probably true. But remember that many of these people are not exposed to different ideas, philosophies, etc. And years ago, the Catholic church in Europe tried to control what people could read, believe, etc. There were even Catholic censors at the opera–they forced Verdi to change the libretti of some of his operas. So he named his dog “Little Priest.”
That seems likely to me. As a Christian, I do hope for others to follow Christ as well, but I certainly wouldn’t want them to lie about it if that’s not what they really believe.
I take it you agree with Dawkins and Harris on this point: “Humans are merely an accidental ‘bud’ on the evolutionary bush. Evolution takes no particular direction, and human existence has no fundamental purpose.” Right or wrong?
Al Leo
In order for us to be an accident there has to be intent to begin with. An accident is when you intend one outcome, but a different outcome occurs instead. “Accidental” makes no sense with reference to the operation of nature.
I would agree that Evolution has no perceivable goal, and I have yet to see anyone demonstrate that human existence has a fundamental and objective purpose. That doesn’t stop me from creating meaning and purpose in my own life.
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At least half of my colleagues over the past fifty years were either atheists or agnostics, and I greatly admire them, as they are good human beings driven by a strong purpose in life. I just find life’s problems easier to face and overcome when I believe in a Creator who had a purpose in mind at the very beginning. Perhaps that is just weakness on my part–taking the easier path. No question that belief in a loving Creator makes one’s later years less stressful–years when the ‘automatic’ chores of daily living become so difficult to perform. Sure, I’ve wondered at times if that is just ‘Pie in the Sky’, a cop-out’ as Carl Sagan would put it. But I have had more than one experience in life that convinces me it’s true–as convincing as the evidence for believing that benzene consists of 6-CH- units in a ring connected by pi-bonds. I did not personally perform the experiments that support the ring structure of benzene, but I accept it, because it fits in with the results I get when I do perform experiments using benzene. I can’t pass on my personal experiences to anyone else except by words, and I am sorely lacking in that skill.
Al Leo
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I beg to differ, my friend …
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That is one of the wonderful and frustrating parts of being human: we can’t see into other peoples’ minds. I salute your honesty and openness, and wish you a happy journey through life.
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Is that an “ex-nihilo” creation or derivative? Where meaning and purpose come from and if we create them vs. accepting them vs. modifying and adopting them, vs. denying them entirely seems to me to be an open question that could warrant its own thread. But on the other hand I can’t imagine what science could possibly say about any of it, so there would be some who, for that very reason, would dismiss the entire discussion as so much wooo.
It comes from the meat sack between my ears and the 3 carbon carbohydrates that fuel it. Call it whatever you like. ;)[quote=“Mervin_Bitikofer, post:33, topic:36613”]
Where meaning and purpose come from and if we create them vs. accepting them vs. modifying and adopting them, vs. denying them entirely seems to me to be an open question that could warrant its own thread. But on the other hand I can’t imagine what science could possibly say about any of it, so there would be some who, for that very reason, would dismiss the entire discussion as so much wooo.
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I don’t feel any need to give it a label or philosophical baggage since it isn’t that complicated. I love my family and friends. I enjoy helping people in my community. I have hobbies and pastimes that I enjoy. I enjoy good food and good drinks. I try to leave the world in better shape than what I found it in. I try to pass on what I have learned to those who are younger than myself. These are the things that give my life meaning and purpose, and I suspect that I have a lot in common with lots of other people.
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It seems that you do have a meaningful life!
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Very good. I hope we all have a lot in common around these things, and even if you modestly (or perhaps immodestly!) imagine that it all originated between your very own ears, I’m glad you have it nonetheless! Those are the real and enduring values that give life and science and everything else very good and necessary reasons for being.
Truly spoken, and it is evident, as beagle lady pointed out, that you are leading a meaningful life. This leads me to recount an experience I had when teaching an Adult Confirmation class. One of the students, an avid admirer of Carl Sagan and his TV series, Cosmos, expressed his sadness at the report that Carl, on his deathbed, refused to "recant" his atheism and, if not accepting Christ as his savior, at least acknowledge the God of Judaism. “How can such a good and talented man be consigned to Hell for eternity?” I answered this thoughtful student by relating a scenario I made up on the spot: "After breathing his last, Carl is ushered into God’s presence. He could not contain his surprise, and his first reaction was: "Well I’ll be damned!" God’s response: “No, Carl, you’re wrong this time. Actually I am quite pleased with the effort you’ve taken to show your fellow humans how difficult it was for me to devise a Cosmos that could serve as a cradle for Life. And then show how long it took for that spark of Life to develop into a being that could appreciate that Life had a purpose and a meaning. So, you left Me out of the picture. That’s OK. I am patient. Eventually every human will Know Me and will realize that My Image is in each and every one of you. When humans love one another as I love them, they will no longer look to the sky for the Heaven they long for”.
Pretty corny, I know. But that student was kind enough to tell me it relieved his mind considerably.
Al Leo
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