Why does Theology have to be so complicated?

“The usual analogy is a room full of monkeys with typewriters eventually writing Shakespeare. The problem with that is that the text would not be coherent, you would have to know Shakespeare to “find” it amongst the millions of other incoherent letters and punctuation marks.”

The analogy is popular, but as a comparison to evolution there are at least two types of problems. First, to the question of “how do you know Shakespeare to recognize which is the desired text?”, the answer is that the environment is what determines if a particular genome is a good enough one. Arguments that particular complexity is a problem for evolution like to point out that a computer program that is looking for a specific character sequence has to include the target sequence within the program if the program is self-checking. But the functionality of the genome is tested by the existing laws of nature; it does not have to include the test within it. And all the other genomes are simultaneously tested against the environment; it’s not necessary to read one at a time. Successful genomes go on to the next round; unsuccessful ones don’t. Secondly, for English, the number of combinations of symbols that actually produce words is much less than the number of possible combinations, even if we’re lenient about spelling. But any sequence of DNA bases has a level of biological activity. Any amino acid sequence has some biological activity. The sequence only needs to be good enough to function. Even a tiny amount of a new function is more ability than none at all; the beginning does not have to be at a high level of function. Evolution takes what’s good enough to survive, copies it with varying levels of errors, and sees if the descendant variants survive. If you imagine that the chimps are trying to produce any work in any language, anyone able to read can take a look and inform the chimps what part is on target, and the chimps can copy that part, trying again, then you get closer to the situation for evolution.

The diversity of life shows that there is a very wide range of DNA sequences that are functional as directions for living things. One way that DNA code is like English words is that there are often quite different ways to give the same result, and a small change can give a very different result but often doesn’t make much difference. For example, Dawkins’ quote from Hamlet “Methinks it is like a weasel”, if treated as an attempt at mammal identification, is quite similar to the meaning from Homer and Jethro of “There was a smart guy, from the city, and he picked up a striped kitty…We held our nose as we buried his clothes”. But “A weasel thinks it is like me” is quite different in meaning.

Given that the steps needed between making basic biochemical building blocks like amino acids, sugars, fats, and nucleotides and making organisms are highly uncertain, it’s not very practical to assess probabilities. If we start with a simple bacterium (no nucleus), it probably doesn’t have the greatest error checking, and there are plenty of mutations in the following generations; some survive and some don’t. Particularly given that prokaryotes tend to readily pick up bits of DNA, and may join up to form symbiotic relationships, there is quite complex mixing and matching of DNA sequences to potentially produce new useful options. Indeed, it is not clear that evolving from bacteria to us is actually “uphill”, as the range of DNA sequences is becoming more random with each new kind of organism.

“There is an old adage: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it””

That aptly explains why “how come there are still ____?” in evolution. If an organism is already successful, changes are likely to be detrimental, and so evolution favors not changing in that situation. But environments change and the set of associated organisms changes, so eventually a change becomes advantageous – exactly what produces the pattern of punctuated equilibrium. A more gradual pattern of change happens if there is less severe competition or less environmental pressure, so that there’s a high proportion of survivors. Contrary to Lamarck, organisms are not inherently trying to become improved. But if organisms are becoming more variable, some of the variants will likely be more complex and others more simple. For example, the first muricid snails (the source of Tyrian purple) were small and had no spines. Today, many species are large and many have lots of spines. But if a snail has no spines, it can’t go any lower in spine number. Random variation in spine number would lead to an increase in spine number in this case. Likewise, if the first ones were near the small end of the possible size range, random variation will lead to an increase in average size. Biologically, different organisms have different strategies that work for them – there’s no biological definition of overall “improvement”, merely “being better at doing ___”.

“All these things rely on two other things

  1. diagnosis
  2. reinvention (or at least "tweaking)”

Which, as noted above, does not require intelligence. Diagnosis requires some sort of criterion. In the case of natural selection, both the standards and the testing against the standards are done by the laws of nature. Gravity is not intelligent; it merely provides certain constraints on what works and negative consequences for trying to disregard those constraints. Reinvention requires moderately reliable but not absolutely perfect copying of the original. DNA copying fits that requirement.

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You are the one who claimed that evolution being chaotic and probabilistic is a problem. But many other things are chaotic or probabilistic. If you claim that evolution can’t be true because it is “random”, how can all the “random” events at just one Vegas casino happen? Contrary to both atheistic and anti-evolutionary claims, the scientific “randomness” of evolution is nothing more or less than a description of the fact that it lacks a simple, easy to compute predictive formula, which is also true of planetary orbits when you get into details of long-term behavior, and of many other things. Randomness does not remove God from the picture.

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But why should there be any new functions at all?

Evolution is the only system that assumes there will be something new. Deviation and / or mutation is normally the cause of cancers and detrimental faults. Why should they produce something that is both functional and new?

What about so called redundant, or non functioning sequences? (And how does nature knw when to make something redundant?)

Evolution does not take anything. That is human conceptualisation.

And this is explained how?

Again that is an active process that is a human conception… Nature cannot identify let alone match, both involve cognisant recognition. Evolution, by its nature, must be passive.

But it doesn’t explain why there is anything “new

precisely, so evolutionary change for the better is contrary to that change.

That assumes a constant change of environment. It does not explain why a creature would deliberately move to change that environment. There is no logical reason for a creature to deliberately migrate, or to know that moving in one direction will change the environment, let alone that it has the ability to survive in that environment

Precisely. Creatures have no such understanding or ability.

Why?. If it is random then it will go anywhere, and in any .increment possible.

No, they do not. A strategy involves cognisance. . That is humans imposing their own conceptions onto Nature.

No, you have proven no such thing.

Any change is passive. Diagnosis is active, as is any reaction to a diagnosis.

Nature cannot identify criterion. It has no cognisance!

But Nature does not understand gravity, it can’t Understanding need cognisance. We know what gravity is and does, but Nature does not. When a lemming reaches the end of a cliff it does not think “oh hell I am falling” it just plummets and dies. There is no understanding.

But oly in a passive sense. The probability of the change being beneficial is, as you have already noted, low. ToE needs that change to be beneficial often enough to “improve” when “improvement” is not a known concept.

Why can’t you see that all these processes involve active cognisance not passive luck?

Richard

Context restored and emphasised:

Asking a question about something you’re quoting, when that question was already addressed in the previous post in text that you didn’t quote, suggests at least one of four options:

  1. You didn’t pay attention to what you were replying to;
  2. You didn’t understand what you’re replying to;
  3. You’re being dishonest (and think other people have poor memories and can’t use scroll bars);
  4. You’re being a troll and wasting people’s time.

It doesn’t really matter which is the correct option, the effect is the same: you get put in the not-worth-wasting-time-on category.

That’s particularly the case when the question you asked was addressed in the same sentence you only partly quoted.

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Near is not at. And, if the next one goes up there is no certainty that the following one will have the same trend. Random, still means random, not progressing.

Be careful what you accuse.

Richard

I am careful.

What’s your explanation for only quoting half a sentence, when the other half was also relevant to your question?

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I quoted what was needed. The starting point is comparatively irrelevant. Once a change is made there are now two directions the net change can go. There is no certainty of a continuance either way., unless there is some sort of mechanism to control it. The only “control” in Evolution is survival. That does not dictate the variations that are available, only the ones that continue.

Philosophy is not a part of evolution, or so it would seem. It cannot be measured or accounted for. All science can do is observe what has happened. The explanations are based on physical changes and relating them to the environment and / or competition. Science cannot measure motivation or conceptual understanding.

Richard

Codswallop.

Hogwash.

The starting point is not completely irrelevant, because we’re looking for an overall trend, and random variation can produce a trend if you start near one end of the variation. To give another example, suppose you start in one corner of a room and randomly flip two coins to decide which way to go. Two heads=forward one step, head-tail=left one step, tail-head=right one step, tail-tail=back one step. If you keep that up for a while, you will end up closer to the middle of the room than the corner where you started, because you can’t step back through the wall from your starting place. Similarly, the snails can’t have a negative number of spines, so random variation in spines would, over time, lead to an increase in the average number of spines. Of course, if there is evolutionary pressure favoring more spines, there would be an increase in spine number. “Cope’s law”, a supposed trend for lineages of organisms to get bigger over time, is often just a case of often starting with a small ancestor and having descendants of varying size. The average size does increase in that case, but there are also medium and small individuals among the descendant forms.

For that matter, if you started in the center of the room and tried the coin flip pattern described above, there is a high chance that you would not end up in the exact same place as you started. Random variation is quite likely to produce slightly directional change over time in real organisms simply because there’s a finite number of individuals, so variations do not always actually average out.

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Every mutation is something new. There are new things because organisms generally do not perfectly clone themselves; even a perfect genetic clone may turn out somewhat different due to the influences of environment.

Any DNA sequence and any amino acid sequence will have some ways in which it will interact with other biological chemicals, due to the laws of chemistry. Some of those interactions are useful to organisms. If a mutation is useful, the chances of it getting passed on improve (because the organism with it is more successful). That gives another round of variations in DNA sequence that

Most mutations have no significant effect. Many slightly improve or weaken the functioning of a particular gene. Is that good or bad? That depends strongly on the particular situation the organism is in; it might be beneficial, harmful or neutral. Some have large effects. Whether that is advantageous or disadvantageous depends on how well the gene is functioning under the existing conditions. To develop something new, change has a fair chance of improving it; for a well-established function, change is more likely to be detrimental for that function, but it may be useful for something else.

Active cognizance is not needed. Organisms that survive and reproduce pass on their genes, but in somewhat modified form due to recombination, mutation, etc. Those of the next generation that survive and reproduce pass on their genes, with similar kinds of modifications.

The “diagnosis” needed for evolution is simply “does the organism survive and reproduce?” The conditions for this “diagnosis” are simply the laws of nature and the details of the environment, both biological and abiotic components of the organism’s surroundings. If you don’t want to call that diagnosing, propose a better term. But if that does not count as diagnosing, then diagnosing is not needed for for the changes. Nature does not identify criteria, but the laws of nature function as criteria producing a result. Most of your arguing is just complaining about semantics and claiming that proves problems with evolution; you need to address what is actually happening in evolution rather than the words used to prove something about evolution.

"That assumes a constant change of environment. It does not explain why a creature would deliberately move to change that environment. There is no logical reason for a creature to deliberately migrate, or to know that moving in one direction will change the environment, let alone that it has the ability to survive in that environment "

Clarifying an ambiguity: environments are constantly changing in various ways, meaning that environments change all the time. Some change slowly, some quicker; thee are all sorts of patterns of change - the pattern of change is not constant. Your wording also seems to confuse whether organisms are changing the environment versus making changes in response to the environment. Both happen all the time, but they are different components of what’s happening. Creatures deliberately migrate all the time - “here’s too cold/hot/dark/bright/etc., so I will move.” Also, they may accidentally migrate (such as being moved by a storm, or a population can migrate over time by a combination of random dispersal but they thrive better in some areas than in others).

Environments change. Maybe a new competitor or predator shows up. Maybe the food develops a defense. Maybe it gets a bit warmer. Given this, what worked before may not work so well now, and a genetic variation that wasn’t useful before now is useful.

“Strategy” as a description of how an organism functions does not require cognizance. Maple trees have flattened wings on their seeds, helping them to spread in the wind. Some other plants have seeds that stick to animals and are transported that way. A different strategy. Others get animals to eat their fruit and spread seeds that way. A third strategy. Yet plants do not think.

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Great question :grinning:

Matt 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.

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How can you take a day (24 hours) literally when God could have done all of that in one second or are the 6 days of God’s work and Him rest on on the 7th day not symbolism to Ex 23:12 Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest;

That reminds me of one an aunt got us kids for Christmas: it had pictures on both sides, and the colors in both pictures were very similar. For once our assembly-line approach didn’t work.

Not always. I think it was my dad who got us a puzzle one year with a round picture on the front though the puzzle was the usual rectangle. The image in the circle was about half of the entire thing, so we had the central image but no clue as to the edges – and it turned out that the image in the circle wasn’t quite in the middle but was off by three or four rows. Oh – the edge wasn’t much help, either; it had the image of a picture frame with nothing of the picture it held.
We also did some puzzles that had no picture, just a name, like “Red Barn”, “Mill Water Wheel”, “Country Road”.

Or in our family, in the wrong puzzle! One Christmas we did a 5,000-piece puzzle in one day, so the next year our mom snuck a couple hundred pieces from another puzzle in. They were both alpine-type mountain scenes so they all looked like they belonged. That was a 6,400-piece puzzle.

His point is that you’d never get beyond that to look at creation – that’s what “bury your had in X” means.

Actually it was stolen; there was intelligent design before the YEC movement hijacked the term. Our informal intelligent design club was almost all former atheists or agnostics who saw design in nature and concluded there must be a Designer; they had no time for anyone giving Bible quotes except in pursuit of the question, “Could this qualify as communication from the Designer?” – something YEC types were very bad at addressing.
A lot of the members became Christians because they saw in the Old Testament the claimed revelation that best fit science, especially biology; ToE was the most common item in bringing people to accept the Hebrew scriptures and progress to the Christian addition.

Theirs, anyway. For us it meant that science pointed to design, with no religious literature allowed – that came later in the search for possible communication from a Designer, something we all agreed was logical to expect.

It is now – they ruined a perfectly good term (I won’t repeat what I really feel about that).

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The worst have always come from forcing an eternal worldview onto the scriptures; my favorite examples were the causes of the great Councils; every one of those heresies resulted from importing Greek philosophy or other pagan thought into theology. My second favorite is how the western church imposed Aristotle onto theology, with ramifications that still continue today.

I love that comparison! I grin very time I encounter it.

The passage more indicates not to worry about someone else’s destiny in comparison to our own.

And Jesus said very bit of it is about Him.

No – the lead plaintiff in that case was Jewish, as were some others, plus a Unitarian as I recall, with one atheist in the bunch. The issue was that the State of New York had endorsed one religion above others.

Some of these cases have been led by Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Baptists (ones I know of), which hardly makes them about a “shift . . . AWAY from God”.
I wonder what you would have thought of the suit brought in Oregon after a high school salutatorian gave a blatantly Mormon prayer?

I have a half dozen books on my shelves by YEC authors arguing ID.

It is – as Paul calls it, “this flesh” is still sinful. Jesus didn’t rescue us from death, He rescued us through death by changing its result/aftermath. We go through death but do not belong to its realm.

Yes.

Amen! All the covenants rest on the Cross.

The problem being that those facts were fairly simple in comparison.

I read about a case where almost forty local religious groups announced that each one would seek one half-hour each school week to teach their perspective. The bill died in committee shortly after.

An interesting thing there is that the “sustains the universe” concept goes back long before modern science – it can be found in the church Fathers.

Also a very humanistic one!

“Old earth” appeared before the sixth century in Christianity, by how much I don’t know. What I do know is that both Jews and Christians found the first days of the Creation account to be “divine days/time”, which made Creation ancient before humans ever appeared; some tied it to the title “Ancient of Days” that belongs to Yahweh according to Daniel.

And against many theologians!

As has been made clear in this forum repeatedly.

As my very first college biology professor put it, “God did it” is not a statement that should be responded to with, “Oh, okay” but with, “Cool – how did He do it?”

Exactly! The only reason to stuff the meaning “planet” into Genesis 1 is if God has to live up to scientific standards. That was wrong in the Middle Ages when scholars were positive that the Bible agreed that everything was made of four elements (air, earth, fire, water) and the Earth was the center, and it’s just as wrong now.

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There is nothing metaphorical about physical death in creation as a consequence of obeying God. Regularly throughout the Old Testament (and even the new actually) physical death has been a consequence of obedience to God…the bible is absolutely full of examples of individuals who have obeyed God and paid for doing so by dying exactly the same as everyone else.

I agree there are errors and misconceptions which have been believed by Christians throughout the ages. This one is particularly deadly to the survival of Christianity as a meaningful thing to believe in, for it becomes more and more clear that if people want to live forever they have much more hope of fulfilling a goal like that in the medical sciences.

The problem with this goal is that continued existence without that which makes it worthwhile is more like what I would describe as hell.

A far more meaningful Christianity than this magical one seeking the life of vampires would instead pursue a relationship with an infinite God who can actually provide what would make an endless existence worthwhile – with no end to what He can give to us. To be with God who is spirit rather than living forever like a vampire on the earth.

With its corollary, “Modern biology isn’t in the Bible, so I don’t much care”?

Hmm… My university meteorology professor said for two-week forecasts we just have to get the cells in the models down to 1m^3.

No, they all come under the “umbrella” of chaotic processes.

Several have been explained to you. The most obvious is competition for food.

Did you even read what was written? It’s fifth-grade math concepts!

Because that’s just your imagination.

Nope – there are things called “boundary conditions”. Yes, there are two directions, but one leads to only one direction. That means that the average will only increase.

Basic math.

Just as a matter of (possible) interest, this has been used as a form of trap in table-top fantasy role-playing games, sometimes with hexagons and a six-sided die. Make the room large enough and the directions of movement chosen by that die, and the trap can be . . . tedious.

As has been noted by more than a few theologians; some viewed a drawn-out creation process as injurous to God’s dignity.

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Not observable science then.

Richard

Where? Creationists hijacked the term in 1989. “Intelligent design” wasn’t used much before then.

I’m unaware of much use of the term prior to the creationist hijacking, and I was involved in origins discussion for a couple of years before then.

Sheesh. I can come up with a half-dozen logical reasons without having to pause for thought:

  • seasonal variations in weather making some areas uninhabitable in winter (e.g. bird migrations)
  • food sources being available in different places at different times of year (e.g. African herd migrations)
  • breeding sites and food sources being in different places (e.g. turtle nesting beaches and salmon spawning rivers)
  • intraspecies competition (e.g. dominant male lions and giraffes not letting other males remain nearby)
  • to avoid inbreeding (e.g. meerkat tribe roaming males)
  • to exploit new feeding areas (e.g. ocean vents opening up)
  • seeking cover from predators (e.g. marine organisms that migrate to/from the surface to feed during darkness)

and I’m sure I could come up with many more if needed.

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I think you will find that each year the fledglings have to be taught where to go. Whoo taught the first one?

And they knew there would be food there how?

Again, this is modern instinctive behaviour.

That one i will give you

Interbreeding is not a no no in nature. Just put a load of mice together.

How do they identify these new feeding areas? Slef awareness?

Do you think a fish understands the word “predator”?
(For migration see above)

And I am equally sure that you will impose human understanding onto them.

Even instinct has to be learned. If it is part od=f the DNA that would make DNA even cleverer than it already is. Amazing what a few amino acids know and can do.

You really think all of this is random fluke?

Your faith in ToE is greater than mine in God and that is saying something.

Richard