Why does Theology have to be so complicated?

Faith & Science Conversation
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I accept that St. Roymond and I agree that a pretty solid argument can certainly be made in support of that notion. However given Richard’s descent into what appears to be an atheistic pit, it just seems to me that when Kaput is the best answer, one must at least explain “why God” in such circumstances…imagery of a win win lottery is front and center in my mind.

I say that because for the Christian option in Pascal’s Wager, the God choice has no adverse outcomes compared with the atheist choice. At worst both end up the same…Kaput. Therefore, what has the Christian option got to lose exactly?

My understanding is that one of the main naysay arguments against Pascal’s Wager are other religions…Eastern ones tend to dominate as far as i understand it. However, i don’t think that is a realistic choice given the lack of consistency, historical support, and logical observations of the human condition we see out on the street every day. Soo the eastern religion offering of self-enlightenment is not an obvious alterative…i think an atheist would have to accept that that choice, its a magical pipe dream. So that just leaves Christianity i think.

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You might have your soul consumed by the serpent Apep for following a false god when if you’d remained an atheist you would have been accepted by Ra as an honest truth-seeker and been allowed to remain on his boat during it’s journey through the underworld.

Also money, time, respect, reputation, etc.

Your question has been answered so many times by so many people in so many places that I don’t think for a moment that you haven’t seen it answered. So for you to trot Pascal’s wager out here, where people are far more knowledgeable about such topics than is usual, as if you’d never seen it answered elsewhere, shows that you have no respect at all for anyone else’s views, and are willing to thrust your hackneyed ideas on people who you should know have already encountered them many times previously.

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I never thought I would hear Passcal’s wager as a justification for belief in sin let alone Christianity.

It has nothing to do with the existence of an afterlife, good or bad.

You portray a selfish and vane God who o ly cares for people who worship him. You also make this life a trial or right of passage. A test. If you fail then kaput! Worse thankaput, eternal torment.

God loves all His creation whether they reciprocate or not.

Salvation is not a conscription. You have accepted God’s forgiveness (the king’s shilling) you must now worship me, or else.

Wonderful god you worship.

Richard

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Richard - you are right to reject such a God; because such a God as that would not be the God of Christ and revealed to us in finality in Christ.

My wife and I just watched the first episode of a television miniseries series: “Kaos” last night. [Don’t take this as a recommendation necessarily. Now that we’re several episodes in - it’s really dark and while everything I wrote here still applies well - it is full of spiritual toxicity; maybe comparable to Game of Thrones my son says. Not casual entertainment for the sensitive!] It’s a show about a world where JudeoChristianity never existed, but Zeus and all the pantheon of Greek gods are all real and are what the culture worships. Watching it just highlighted for me how thankful I am that Christ came and showed us with conclusive finality what God is really like - not like the petty and vengeful deities that the world made (and still makes) for itself. We still insist on making gods in our own image and then confusing others by our insistence that this is the real God we need to be worshipping. American Christians are tragically still doing this today - setting aside Christ’s revelation to us of who God is and replacing that with a Satanic power-mongering god much more like the Greek gods in the show.

For those who insist that all the Bible should be read in the light of Christ, it can be seen that the project of getting to know this Creator God was (is) an ongoing project of growth for the figures of the old testament world. They did see God as responsible for calamity and evil as well as for blessings and good. But they were still learning about who this God really is and (unlike us) were not privileged to have access to Christ’s teachings to bring light to it all. And yet - God’s spirit was actively bringing them in that direction, and we can see it when we pay attention to the entire narrative and not fall into the “inerrancy mindset error” of thinking that every verse needs to be considered as an equal gem of factuality to every other verse - as if the Bible were just some flat compendium of “facts” (what we see happening in America today is a very real-world consequence of the bad theology that follows from literalistic thinking.) Here is the example of that which came up for me reading Psalm 38 this morning. It is beautifully captured in a single verse even (verse 3) which begins: “There is no soundness in my flesh because of your indignation; …” (my emphasis added) And David is talking to God as he says this. Other translations might even use the word “wrath”. At this point wrath-enthusiasts get excited and exclaim “see! - God is a wrathful God and we dare not neglect this ‘fact’!”. Then the same verse continues “… there is no health in my bones because of my sin.” (again - emphasis added). Did you see that? What is it that is the cause of my suffering? Is it God’s wrath or is it my own sin? Purists will want to ask, why can’t it be both? Indeed - so long as we realize the plasticity of language then sure - we can refer to tragic stuff that I cause for myself as being “God’s wrath” being visited on me; just so long as we don’t then make the mistake of thinking this is some definitive treatise on who God actually is! For that - we need Christ. But even David (inspired of the Spirit) was breaking through to these realizations back in his prayers. And as we continue reading in that same Psalm (38) we see him more and more favoring the view that it is his own sin - our own sins that are the chief causes of calamity for ourselves and others. And this dawning realization that begins to foment and be revealed already by the old testament prophets (in contrast to the older Torah law) is ratified, and confirmed by Jesus himself. And Jesus even takes us the further step yet (along with the psalmists and Job) to realize that even when it comes to sin - there is still no perfect correlation between our own sin and our own suffering for us to then use to generate yet one more formula for premature judgment of others (much less judgment of God). To continue to accept the petty vengeful god of wrath, Jesus would have had to distort his own parable and have the Father following his lost son into the far country and actively tormenting him there just to make sure he was sufficiently miserable. But no - the son generates quite enough miseries all by himself; the Father just waits with longing and hope and open arms for the day his son might return.

And the life Christ goes on to live - all the way to the cross - rejecting Satan’s temptations to use power, coercion, (c’mon - you can show us just a bit of that awe-inspiring wrath, won’t you? - but only against our enemies of course…) and Jesus definitively and repeatedly reveals the source of this temptation: it is purely Satanic and named as such. To try to read any part of the Bible differently and re-imagine God as the petty deity that looks more like Zeus than Christ is to pit the Bible against Christ and to read it wrongly. And that reminder extends all the way from the original Torah law all the way to Revelation where we - under Satan’s prodding - still make one last desperate gambit to turn Jesus from a crucified lamb into a roaring lion of bloody vengeance, as if Jesus will eventually reject everything he himself taught us and lived out before us and decide instead that all that love stuff didn’t work after all and Satan was right all along - let’s go for the power-grab now, and make it all about ballots and even bullets if necessary. But in Christ’s light, we know (or American Christians will eventually come to know) that all that obsession with power comes straight from the pit of hell, from the father of lies himself.

So … all of that long ramble was just to commend you, Richard, for rejecting such a god.

-Merv

The crucifixion of Christ was not a defeat that was overturned by resurrection. Rather it was a victory revealed in resurrection.

-Brian Zahnd in “The Wood Between the Worlds” - the work that provoked many of my thoughts and wordings in my above ramble.

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Well it made me smile.

Merry Christmas Mervin… I am glad that at least someone recognises the gift of Christmas for what it is. (Or maybe what it isn’t)

Richard

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Reminds me of a guy in Campus Crusade for Christ who said “B.I.B.L.E.” stood for “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth”. I told him it isn’t about instructions, it’s about our Incarnate Instructor, and it isn’t about leaving Earth, it’s about getting a new one. That sort of trite reductionism always disgusts me.

Yes – literalism doesn’t quite inevitably lead to legalism, but it’s a hard course to steer to avoid that.

Wrath = indignation? I think not. “Wrath” is a bad translation; drag that through all the other few dozen occurrences and that just doesn’t fit, whereas “indignation” works in every one (a tiny bit stretched in Hosea, but it still works). “Wrath” only works in a majority of cases if you’re already a fan of an angry God.
Wish I had a TDOT handy, I’d dive in to the weeds on this word.

I don’t see a contrast there; even before I met a couple of rabbis in grad school I saw the prophets as setting forth what the Torah was supposed to have taught. Luther makes a good point regarding that, to the effect that even when given something holy we humans will twist it to make it about us, and thus miss the boat.

I run into altogether too much of that attitude in so-called “conservative”, “non-denominational” churches! I think the worst was the preacher on my university campus who had a sign saying God delights in tormenting sinners; I’ve already told the story of how I inadvertently knocked him off his soapbox.

Amen.

I get quite irritated at preachers who treat the Crucifixion as a defeat and Easter as the victory – enough so that I have grabbed a preacher’s hand rather than shaking it and not letting go until I had delivered a correction loud enough for all to hear. The early church regarded the Crucifixion as Christ’s enthronement, and we need to catch that perspective.

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I read your reply and it saddens me.

Like many you take what is a complete argument or statement and you break it down into parts. I guess that is the scientific method transferred to reading.

I think Mervin understood what i was driving to but , knowing your theology, I doubt that you do.

Christianity is not about booking a ticket to Heaven. You and @adamjedgar seem to have booked your tickets, but I amfraid that it is going in the wrong direction.

Christiannity can easily sink into self interest. All that matters is your eternal happiness. It is not about what you can do for God but what will do for you.The whole focus is in not going Kaput.

God sees past Biblical knowledge and assertive doctrine. It is all words and posturing. It always amazes me how people can spend a lifetime studying Scripture and still get the wrong understanding…

It is not about Sin. It is nt about Heaven (or Hell) It is all about living this life. You read the prophets anger against futil acts of worship or pennance and do not relte it yo yourself. You read Jesus cirticising the pharisees and do not understand that it also apples to your attitude to your faith. You look for piety and religious perfection in yourself and do not see how you treat the world around you. How you despise it. It is full of sin and you cannot wait to get away from it. or for God to come and overthrow it…

The trhust of all the prophets is not in discipleship or belief, or appeasing God, it is about how you tret the widdow and the foreighner and thise less offrtunate than yourself. Giving lall your mney to the poor is a meaningless gesture if you pat yourelf on the back for it or do it ut of some loyalty to Paul or even Jesus.

It’s Christmas day, the (Official) anniversary of God’s greatest gift that you and thers have changed into a travel agent for Heaven, but only for the faithful few. You believe you have found the small gate but you have not.

This barrier of sin you percieve was made by man,yes, but it is not about God’s perfection, it is about human perfection. You think that god only wants “sinless” followers or for everyone on HIs earth to be sinless You think you need forgivenss. You think that God cannot see you if you are not pure…

God did not send Jesus for His sake. He sent Him for ours. God did not send Jesus as a sacrifice to Him, but as an appeasement for our inadequacies. God does not want saints, he wants people to live in harmony and socially with each other and to live this life,. It is only you who cares about the next one, not God.

God has shown you that sin is not imprtant to Him. Why do you spend so much time on it?

The demands, the obediences, the restrictions, the laws, they all come from the human views or ethics and justice. God tried pandering to humanity by giving them the sacrifical system but it did not work. Not because the sacrifices were insufficient for Him but because they meant nothing to us. Unfortunatey , for many the sacrfce of Jesus has the same net affect. Nothing. it changes nothing, You still need to be perect for God., Shame that is not what He actually wants of you.

Not all thise who call out Lord Lord witl be saved?

The converse being that many, very many, who do not care about religion or pleasing God have the ticket in the right direction.Becuase they care about humanity, not God.
(and they are not looking for eternal life)

Richard

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It is (or should be) a terrifying passage for all of us. It reminds me of a St. Augustine quote given in Zahnd’s book that I’ve been reading. The quote is in regard to the two thieves, executed on each side of Christ.

Don’t despair. One was saved.
Don’t presume. One was damned.

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there are significant problems with your claims there…none of the miracles of those Gods are demonstrably proven like the ones in the Bible are. There is also little historical support for their religious claims in world cultures or events.

Your criticism is nonsense and not worth even debating. If you had of actually read the pascals wager papers, you would already know the for’s and against arguments and the fact is, despite the wives tails you have heard, none of them beat the Wager.

So ill leave that nonsense where it belongs…in the waste paper basket!

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only ignorance would imagine that notion…take a look at the O.P (note the topic is not sin…its complicated theology)

So the simple reason addressing the OP is far more easily addressed with the Wager…The point is, theology doesnt have to be complicated…that is not an accurate statement of Christianity. Its far more basic that that…either there is a God or there isn’t! (that’s the point of the Wager).

The book of revelation 14:12 states that in order to be saved all one has to do is 2 things:

  1. follow the law (because its Gods standard by which we know God is real as when we live according to that standard in our own lives, things generally just work more harmoniously)
  2. believe in the gospel - the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice in paying the wages of Sin is death!

Back to the Wager…what the Wager highlights is, for the individual who believes in God (a heavenly diety), that person has nothing to lose compared with the non believer. So given there is nothing to lose, why not barrack for the team?

Now to answer your criticism more directly…the really interesting thing is, Christ used an example of a Samaritan in one of his parables…the individual was clearly saved…but he wasn’t Jewish!

So if you were to say to me …what about Egyptian Gods, Eastern religion Gods, Aboriginal Gods, American Indians Gods…who gives a rats ass? Being Godly isn’t a particular religion, all we have to do is love our neighbour and in doing that we automatically demonstrate a love of God! For example:

Christ simply said “in as much as you did it to the least of these my brethren, you did it to me!”

I mean if you really want to…you can choose the “Kaput” option…I’m not really able to do anything about that if that’s what you prefer to do. But just don’t come whinging to me about how unfair you have been treated if you end up “down there burning in hell” and I end up “up there living a wonderful eternal life of bliss”.

If we both end up “Kaput”, its unlikely either of us will actually know anything about it in any case…because logically, if God doesnt exist, then neither does hell. In any of the scenarios above…only the believer has any possibility of winning (those are the fundamental odds in this the game of life…so ill take the bet for very obvious reasons

the other day, one of my daughters asked me what many might consider is a bit of an unusual question. She asked

“dad what do you actually do for work?”

My answer was, “cuteness (that’s what I’ve always called her), I’m a professional opportunist”

that is also my reason for choosing belief in Christ…Its an opportunity. I see a chance for something better there so I’m willing to barrack for the team in the hope that there is a God and more to life than 3 score and 10 years and pain and suffering for those few individuals who i watched needlessly die horrible deaths!

So in this case, Im a religious opportunist. Ill take Pascals Wager. If you don’t wish to? well… It would be nice if you did, because i want more barracking for the team…thats the goal of witnessing obviously, however, if you don’t want to barrack for the team, that’s your choice…we are not robots)Personally, i feel that the individual who refuses a gift which is the opportunity of a lifetime…then that individual is a bit of a fool!

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I should know the OP. I wrote it.

Yes, you have made your theology very simple and clear.

Self Interest.

Your allegiance is a sham. \you only want the “reward”.

Christianity is not about going to Heavenor avoiding Hell. Neither is it an insurance policy against eternal torment. You cannot just raise the flag and claim to be a member. Do you really think God is stu[id enough to accept someone whose only motive is not to go kaput?

In truth, I cannot lecture you. I cannot even start to. There are not enough gigabytes on this forum.

(Any respect I might have had to you is blown away.by you accptance of Pascal’s wager. I wonder where that is found in Scripture?)

Richard

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‘Wrath’ was only the choice of a couple of English translations, the majority of them chose either ‘indignation’ or ‘rage’. But I’m not here to quibble about translation choices of a word, and it has no relevance to my point anyway. Whether you count it as God’s full-on fury or just a minor irritation - either way, David is (at first consideration anyway) attributing his miseries to God’s actions.

I think the main contrast to be found is in the practice of animal sacrifice (sacrificial atonement). If all we have is the Torah, then sacrifices come across as pretty essential. God gives instructions and they’d better do it - and do it right. Then, it’s mostly in the prophets (and maybe the psalms too) I believe that we begin to see that there is something even more important to God yet. And that is obedience, mercy, justice, and walking humbly with God. “Sacrifices you have not desired …” are some of the strong phrases used on this (Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7, Psalm 40 …) This isn’t just a one-off from one special prophet, and they aren’t just vaguely hinting around about it. There is a theme going here that we did not find so much (or at all?) in the Torah, and that is that the sacrificial system is not what God is all about after all. And Jesus comes along (and the apostles after him - just read Paul or Peter or John or the entire book of Hebrews on this) and full-on ratifies that latter prophetic view over and against the earlier Torah law. The earlier law seems to get most of Jesus’ “You have heard it said … but I say to you…” responses. One can easily see why the Pharisees and Sanhedrin were so upset. But the latter prophets? They foretold it! And even Moses did too (foretold it) - we just need to be careful not to read the law as having some sort of finality in showing us who God is. That finality belongs only and ever to Christ alone. For the Christian, all other prophets and law must be read and understood in that light; and if it leads to any contradiction to what we see in and hear from Christ, then it is Christ we go with, and we handle or even dismiss our understanding of the earlier law accordingly.

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I think Jeus tried to divert from the letter of the law towards the spirit. He promooted the idea that it was not the finished action that mattered but the thoughts that proceeded it. Often our actions are tempered by what others may see ot think. If we just followed our initial thoughts we would probably end up before a magistrate. Even jibes or insults comoflage an underlying… hate? or at least a burning anger.

Having shown my anger above, that I do not regret I should add, it is the motivation I would claim is God’s interet rather than slavish obedience to any percieved law or behavioural guidance. (Scripture). It is much easier to temper our actions than our thoughts. In this respect I find myself jealous of Vulcans.(But not in terms or love and affection)

Richard

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We were talking of “favorite fictional aliens” last night and my son said he really liked the “Enterprise” series of Star Trek because there we finally got to see moody or impatient Vulcans - and even Vulcans with serious spirituality. They became more complicated beings than the more 1-dimensional rationalists of earlier series.

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I will admit that of all the Star Trek series the one I got on with least was Enterprise. I think it was the fact that they had tried to make it a prequel as opposed to the Later Picard and Discovery which did not attempt to reqally interact with the other series. Discoery especially “cheated” with a technology that was not available and would have meant Voyager could have got straight home again.

On the whole I would not want to be a Vulcan. There is a self discipline involved that is beyond my grasp, or even my desires.

We could discusss spirituality in ehStar Trek franchise but, maybe it would take a thread of its own.

Richard

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I read your post and can’t figure out either what of mine you’re responding to or what any of it has to do with anything I’ve said.

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No, I doubt that you would /do.

You latch onto sentences or phrases and compare them to some proffessor or student you have been with, but you do not seem to understand the whole thing. Perhaps you do not realise thart you worship an angry and vindictive god?

Ah well, never mind. Faith is personal and clearly your understanding of God (and Scripture) is not the same as mine.
(I am hoping that you won’t claim some sort of truth or correctness)

Richard

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I think it’s important since indignation has been sometimes defined as “feeling insulted on someone else’s behalf”. That totally changes what is being attributed to God.

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You bet I’m out for the rewards!

1 Corinthians 3:8

“Now he who plants and he who waters are the same, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor”.

2 John 1:8

“Watch yourselves, that we don’t lose the things which we have accomplished, but that we receive a full reward”

James 1:12

“Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him”

Hebrews 13:16

“And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased”

Colossians 3:23-24

“Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward”.

Matthew 5:46

“Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you”

Revelation 22:12 -13. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

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But it does show us who God is…it does exactly that.

We only come to the conclusion the law is not representative of Gods character when humans misread and interpret scripture according to their own wishes and conveniences.

Individuals can disagree with that notion but that is a theological fundamental belief of all Christianity.

When we keep the law, we are living like God. Both God and the law are best summed up as “love” (1 John 4:8; Romans 13:10). We could think of the law as a mirror of God’s character. The Law: A Reflection of God’s Character

Therefore, you will never find a contradiction between Christ and the law! He even tells us that:

Matthew 5 :17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Note that He uses the above statements in conjunction with “great in the kingdom of heaven” (still the future for us). This clearly means that the law is a standard by which humanity will be judged right up until we enter the kingdom at the Second Coming.