Who best reconciles the Bible and Evolution?

Faith & Science Conversation
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I just mean that the significance of the history is revealed in the theological truth claims associated with it. The reason we care about the history of Abraham is because of the theological importance of the covenant, and of the establishment of Israel as God’s chosen people, and of the promised Messiah. The fact that the actual historical events objectively happened in exactly the way described is less essential than what the storyline reveals about God’s interaction in our world. That doesn’t mean that I don’t care whether or not it is a “true” story. Obviously for something to count as history it has to have some relationship to a reality that actually happened. But I don’t see the OT narratives as a bare recounting of historical facts. There is a theological agenda to their telling and it doesn’t bother me if something I would consider a facet of “historical accuracy” gets sacrificed or manipulated to serve the theological agenda.

Yes, I think the Bible is true history as well, and the history is what reveals God’s character and will. To clarify better, I meant that I don’t think the significance of the history it reveals is summed up in mere facts. It is the whole storyline and trajectory that matters, and the meaning God gives to the facts and events that matter, not the bare factuality of the facts .

I think people get hung up on treating the Bible like a document to be fact-checked. I think that is a reductive approach to God’s revelation. The Bible’s authority rests on an a priori acceptance that it is the the true revelation of a God whose person is Truth, not on it’s ability to pass some kind of test we subject it to where we decide how well it holds up against what we have already decided is objectively true. I think a lot of Evangelicals want to establish the Bible’s credibility by historically (and sometimes scientifically) fact-checking it, and if it passes the test, we are authorized to believe what it says about God. I think this is backwards. We encounter God. His Spirit testifies to our hearts that his word is truth. The authority of Scripture derives from the Person who inspired it and uses it in our own lives and contexts, it’s authority is not something we ascribe to it when we have determined it is factual enough to meet our standards of truth-telling.

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My tool is more of a scalpel than a sledge hammer. History in the NT is very close to being correct and for example the year of Christ’s birth is probably known to within a few years. As you progress back through the OT the adjustments need to grow larger but are probably in the range of a few hundred years. This accuracy is largely due to the presence of written history not necessarily the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Now what happens when you get back to Genesis 1-11? This is before recorded history and there are few extra-Biblical sources that can be used to verify the history. Likewise there is little the Holy Spirit could draw on except the oral stories that the author of Genesis knew. Could the Holy Spirit have provided this history by inspiration, yes certainly. Did He, no simply because the history doesn’t match what we now know the history of the earth to be. I am not saying Genesis 1-11 was not inspired, just that the history it contains is not the point when you read it. Hence my comment about coming to grips with the actual age of the earth first.

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Ancient historians, both scriptural and secular, operated differently than we expect from our modern ideas of history and the writing of history. They were not concerned with simply recording facts for later generations. They were not dispassionate reporters. Their biographies focused upon a subject’s good character as an example for readers to emulate. Their histories interpreted events to highlight their ultimate meaning, and Greco-Roman historians frequently noted the guiding hand of “fate” in ordering history and giving it direction. The evangelists also interpret the flow of history, but as Jews they attribute the guiding hand to God, both explicitly and through the leitmotif of prophetic fulfillment that connects their works to the history of God’s dealings with Israel. The modern conceit of “objectivity” in writing history did not exist for the ancients. Like their Greco-Roman counterparts, the evangelists had a greater purpose than simply preserving bare facts for later generations. Rather, in their choice and arrangement of material, they sought to provide an interpretive framework for their audience to grasp the significance of Jesus.

Here are some examples of “theological history” that may help you. Jeroboam II was the longest reigning (41 years) and most successful monarch in the history of the northern kingdom of Israel, but the author of 2 Kings basically brushes him aside in just six verses. Minor kings receive far more attention because the author wants to make a theological point about God’s dealings with Israel, not simply record the nation’s history, as we conceive of history.

Within the gospels, Luke gathers a great deal of diverse material and gives it shape in Luke 9:51-19:47. Sometimes called the “Travel Narrative” or the “Journey to Jerusalem,” almost all of this material is lacking any specific time markers. In other words, these stories and parables and etc. could have occurred at any point during Jesus’ ministry, but Luke does not record them in the chronological order that they happened. Instead, he gathers this material and gives it shape to make a theological point about discipleship and following Jesus on “the way” (the first name for the Christian movement) to the cross. For Luke, the inspired author, the theological point was more important than the chronological details. This is not the only time that happens in Scripture.

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Figurative Interpretations

When Oscar Hammerstein II wrote “The hills are alive with the sound of music/With songs they have sung for a thousand years,” I don’t think he was wanting us to think about 1,000 years as opposed to 1,001 years or even as opposed to 2,000 years. Neither do I think I will be able to find one of these “songs” on iTunes. Yet Hammerstein did mean something when he chose the word “songs” and the expression “for a thousand years.”

The value of a figurative interpretation is having some idea of what the something is. Without this, it’s impossible to say that the figurative interpretation is meaningful. That’s why I’ve maintained that to merely say “It’s figurative language” without giving the figurative interpretation does not bring an interpretive gain. It denies the literal meaning without giving you anything in exchange. It’s a net loss.

Now, figuring out what the something is, is not just a matter of finding another word to substitute. If it were, then there’d be no purpose to poetry. Poetry seeks to convey that which is not always easy to nail down. Still, we’ve got to find some way to understand the somethings - else our figurative interpretations are actually non-interpretations.

Could we be content with saying that “Maria liked the hills” was Hammerstein’s main point (the way some people seem to say “God did it” was the main point of Genesis 1)? Well…I guess…but don’t you expect more from Hammerstein’s writings (and God’s, for that matter) than that? What did Hammerstein mean by “alive”? What did he mean by “music”? What did he mean by “a thousand years”? By reflecting on these words, meaning comes to us - not always, as I said above, by word substitution, but by understanding, which can then be articulated in our own prose or new poetry. Yes, Maria liked the hills, but the rest of the words in that song have purpose and that purpose is more than just providing poetic or musical filler than can be removed from the song without a loss of meaning.

That’s why I spoken of “points of correspondence” in a figurative interpretation. If I’m to understand something figuratively instead of literally I need to have figurative meaning that includes one or more points of correspondence with reality. This is the way I see Jesus speak. Even when He says something that seems to be filler (e.g. “Truly, truly I say to you”), it’s not. God speaks no empty words.

This is the difference between saying, “I take that passage figuratively” and “Here’s how I take that passage figuratively.”

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Because it can’t. There is nothing testable about someone who claims God healed them for example. There is no way to detect the direct interaction and trace how a non-material being just interacted in the physical world. Yes, God is called the healer in the OT and Jesus clearly healed people, but it is not a scientific question. The healing prayer experiments have turned out quite badly in general. Or someone who claims that God spoke to them. Did He? Well maybe but it is not a scientific question, especially if it is a non-audible/metaphysical voice that produces no signal for an instrument to detect.

Can you name some just wondering, that scientists just won’t touch? The beauty of science, as opposed to how many Christians view the Scriptures is that as there are no sacred tomes and no untouchable truths. If it can be tested and examined, it will be.

And I put the Lamoureux article in there, since he sums up what I was trying to say in many posts, knowing full well that you don’t agree with him (I was assuming you could remain somewhat neutral in this particular book chapter since it is not his particular interpretation of Genesis). Are there any actual examples of something you can point out that can show to me that this is not ancient science? In all my study of other Cosmologies in other creation accounts, the Bible is not unique in its scientific claims, though is unique in some of its theological claims. In other words, the whole reason I am talking about this point so much is that the Bible, being written in ancient science, can be very flexible in how it is understood concerning the material world while still gleaning and hearing the deep theological truths contained therein. So again, being ancient science, it doesn’t matter if the scriptures appear to contradict the Big Bang, Evolution, billions of years. I can still come alongside the text and hear God speaking through it without worrying about what science provides as a better idea of reality in those areas it can test.

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It’s obvious to me, Bill, that you and I could agree on many things, but not on what you say here. As I understand it, you are saying that you do not need an alternative understanding of Genesis 1 in order to accept evolution. The difference between us would be the same if the focus was shifted to the age of the earth.

As I’ve said, I have no problem accepting scientific knowledge about the movements of the earth, sun, and so forth because I see nothing in the Bible that conflicts with it. I cannot say the same about evolution and the age of the earth. (Again, it’s a problem of history, not of science.)

The alternative biblical understanding that you do not need in order to accept evolution or a billion-year-old earth, I do. This doesn’t mean I’m right and you’re wrong; it just means you’re not the BioLogos person to give me a biblical argument that allows for evolution the way I see it allowing for the movements of the earth, sun, and so forth.

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Please tell me more about what you mean by this sentence, especially explaining the words “modern,” “conceit,” and “objectivity.”

(My focus here is not directly on point, but it is a subject in which I have intense interest.)

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Didn’t you just give a paragraph full of them?

It’s been several years since I’ve read and interacted with Denis; as a result, I don’t recall many details of what bothered me. The main issue between us was that I had, as you’ve come to see, a demand for a biblical explanation of why evolution didn’t bother him and he had no corresponding supply. [quote=“pevaquark, post:249, topic:36078”]
Are there any actual examples of something you can point out that can show to me that this is not ancient science?
[/quote]

I really don’t want to argue whether there is or isn’t such a thing as “ancient science.” I recognize that you want me defend the comment I made, but I’d rather just let my comment stand for people to show me some tolerance for definitional variation…or not. When I say it’s a semantic issue, I don’t mean to trivialize it; but I do mean that it is not on point to what I want to accomplish here and my time is growing short.

Here above @Mervin_Bitikofer made a helpful comment about the semantics, and I think others have said some helpful things along these lines though I don’t recall who they were just now. Suffice it to say that the query that brought me here, though driven by science, has to do with history.

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@Mike_Gantt,

You are playing with all of us here. If a text book has one error, you disbelieve the whole thing?

The Slippery Slope argument that no part of the Bible can be questioned is accepted all too quickly by a manipulated audience.

Millions of Christians don’t accept the position, and thus they use their personal judgement for what is God’s word and what is man’s misunderstanding of his word. It might be a little messy … but it doesn’t endanger their faith…

It only endangers the endowment funds of Creationist groups around the country.

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@Mike_Gantt

I invite you to one of our newest threads:

Perhaps when you have resolved the factual differences - nay errors? - between Chronicles and Genesis & Kings, you will be that much closer to a full embrace of what it means to rely on the Bible, word for word, or sentence by sentence…

Your position on Inerrancy (or anyone’s) does not survive a reading of Chronicles very easily …

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Modern used loosely to mean “of recent vintage”; conceit used in the sense of a “thought or idea”; objectivity used in the sense of, well, objectivity. Haha. The point is that ancient authors were not unbiased reporters, as we expect a modern journalist or historian to be. They had a point of view, and and their histories were written to express that point of view. They arranged their material to make a point. We see this at the end of John’s gospel, for instance, when he says:

“Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

In other words, John has chosen what to write down and what to leave out, and he has done so in a way that will inspire the reaction that he desires – belief that Jesus is the Christ.

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It’s not semantic. How about this: science = how they thought about the natural world. And then how they thought about the natural world = wrong. It was the best explanation they had in their day and that’s what made it into the Bible. If God did not condescend to their understanding, then they would not have understood His main message. This principle is seen even in the life in Christ (Phil 2:7-8).

The book chapter I linked is the entire point of Lamoureux. He doesn’t need an explanation of specific Scriptures because… let me write the logic here again:

  • The Bible contains ancient science.
  • You don’t need to reconcile the Bible and anything in modern science (including evolution) because the Bible contains ancient science.

My point is that you don’t need to reconcile the Bible and evolution.

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I think I understand the point you are wanting to make here, and in your previous post on the same subject, but how do you think it bears on the subject at hand? I could guess what you mean, but wouldn’t you rather just tell me?

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Technically speaking, you are right: I do not need to reconcile the Bible and evolution. What I need to reconcile is the Bible’s apparent timetable for the history of the universe and evolution’s apparent timetable for the history of the universe.

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@Mike_Gantt

It would seem that God doesn’t really care what the exact timetable. If he did, wouldn’t the genealogies in Chronicles and Kings be identical?

As soon as you start in on the apologia for why the scribes of Chronicles are allowed to write something differently from Genesis and Kings, you are opening up an unavoidable reality: the Bible’s details are irrelevant to the importance of its “affirmations”.

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Good gosh! Must you be so demanding! haha

Going back to a long-ago post, scholars recognize the stylistic differences in the Hebrew of Gen. 1 vs. Gen. 2-11 vs. Gen. 12-50. Is Genesis 1 history? The style says it is something other than that. It has more in common with Hebrew poetry than historical narrative. Gen. 12-50, on the other hand, is in the style of a typical Hebrew historical narrative. What about Gen. 2-11? It falls somewhere in between the near-poetry of Gen. 1 and the more straightforward style of Gen. 12-50. For a Hebrew reader of Genesis, then, the impression would be one of increasing “realism”, in terms of writing style, as it progresses toward the patriarchal narratives of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring. Even in English translation, that is the impression one gets reading Genesis from end to end. The farther back the author reaches into the distant past, the more poetic and stylized his language becomes.

This should tell us something about how to interpret the book. Genesis 1 should not be interpreted like Genesis 12, as if both were historical narratives. The author has arranged his material to make a theological point, not to instruct us about the exact chronological order of creation. The point is to place man in his proper setting, as related to his Creator, to his fellow man (male and female He created them), and to the rest of creation. Again, if you want a Scriptural example, so that Scripture may interpret Scripture, I point you to Luke. In Luke 9:51-19:47, he has taken certain events of Jesus’ life “out of context” and rearranged them to make a more important point, which is theological. The exact chronology was less important than the lesson to be taught to Jesus’ future disciples. Did Luke “mislead” us by not telling us the story as a modern biographer would, in exact chronological order of the events? Of course not. Similarly, Moses was less concerned with chronology than theology. He wanted his people to think rightly about the Most High God, and how all of humanity owes him allegiance as Creator. In that, I’d say the Lord’s word succeeded quite nicely in its purpose, despite whatever misunderstandings we have burdened it with yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

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Even if one were to grant the literary structure for Genesis that you outline, and the biblical precedent of a non-chronological sequence of events, I don’t see what it gains you with respect to the problem at hand. If, for example, we posit that, analogous to saying that Jesus may have healed the ten lepers after His encounter with Zaccheus instead of before, God may have created fish and birds after He created animals and humans instead of before, where has that gotten us?

Maybe you are suggesting that “increasing ‘realism’” actually means “from fanciful to factual”? If that’s the case, I’m not sure you’re even safe coming away from Genesis 1 with “God did it.”

I’m actually open-minded about your Gen 1, 2-11, and 12-50 breakdown proposal, and I probably wouldn’t contend hard that Luke’s overriding purpose was chronological purity even though the NASB has him promising “consecutive order” in his prologue, but, given my exposure to all the Hebrew poetry extant in the rest of the Bible, I have a hard time imagining the God of Isaiah 55 inspiring a creation account as fanciful and divorced from reality as your thesis demands.

Morever, I thought one of the few points where EC’s (or TE’s) and YEC’s agreed was on the general order of God’s creative activity - that is, plants then animals then humans. And here you are giving that away at the git-go!

Maybe this is all just over my head.

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P.S. All that said, if you could show me how this interpretive scheme better explains, or better fits, the way Jesus interpreted the book of Genesis, I could find a way to work past its difficulties.

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As I said yesterday, I have to sign off now. Though I will stop posting now, I will eventually read and reflect on anything you continue to post to this topic.

I told my wife the other day, “This BioLogos community is not as hostile as many others with whom I have interacted; as a group they’ve been very gracious.” I have interacted with many discussion forums and blogs over the last ten years, always on Christian topics, but usually on topics other than the one that has engaged us here. It’s been rewarding. Thanks for that.

I do not know at this point where I will end up on this issue, but I pray to God that I don’t end up where I am now: the valley of decision, the haunt of the double-minded. Harry Truman longed for a one-handed economist (if the reference is unfamiliar, you can easily google it); may I once again find myself a one-handed servant of Christ, and - if at all possible, Lord - may the hand I choose be the one of Your choice.

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@Mike_Gantt

You really should read @Reggie_O_Donoghue’s fine posting (link at the bottom) about what can be found “between the lines” of the Genesis creation account!

It’s quite good! He shows how readers can make conclusions about what was motivating some of the scribe’s writings that go a long way to explain why the text is written the way it is written.

To be concise, it wasn’t written because they thought this is how the Earth and life was created … it was written to demolish the pagan ideas - - which we know existed prior to the Biblical literature - - could only be expressed as a contest between multiple gods doing ridiculous things !

So, aside from needing an etymological explanation for why Hebrews should rest on the Sabbath, Genesis uses a pagan skeleton where the only actor is God and humanity … no other gods!

Here is a sample:

“On day four, he are told that God created the great sea beasts. The great sea beasts are the only creatures in 1:21 which are explicitly named, which assigns special significance to them. The Hebrew word used, ‘Tannin’, literally refers to a sea serpent, and is the name of a sea serpent in Canaanite mythology. All mythologies have what is known as the ‘Chaoskampf’, where the chief God battles a serpent or dragon who is associated with chaos; Baal and Lotan, Ra and Apep, Zeus and Typhon, Teshub and Iluyanka, just to name a few examples.”

“By addressing special significance to the Tannin, the author is directly rebuking these pagan beliefs, and stressing the goodness of God by saying that the sea beasts are not adversaries of God, but his own creation. Again, this is not ‘refuting these ideas because of real events’ . . . there would be no reason for this to be in the narrative unless these beliefs already existed”
[ ^^^ And thus in need of contradiction! Note from @gbrooks9 ]